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Irish Border: not just trade 
Post: #1   PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:26 pm Reply with quote
journo
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 5467
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So far, the only debates I have seen about NI-Republic of Ireland Border checks (or not) post-Brexit have focused on trade.

What about the movement of people?

No monitoring of that border/non-border line and the EU would have no control over those who entered EU member states.

Once anyone moved from NI into the Republic, they would have unchecked freedom of movement in the EU.
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Re: Irish Border: not just trade 
Post: #2   PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:45 pm Reply with quote
Mr Tibbs
Joined: 14 Apr 2011
Posts: 11070
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Location: ROC

 
journo wrote:
So far, the only debates I have seen about NI-Republic of Ireland Border checks (or not) post-Brexit have focused on trade.

What about the movement of people?

No monitoring of that border/non-border line and the EU would have no control over those who entered EU member states.

Once anyone moved from NI into the Republic, they would have unchecked freedom of movement in the EU.


My understanding - from you good colleagues - is that it's more a case of things being the other way around.

Now that the Channel ports have increased security quite considerably a currently very lucrative route for the refugee smugglers is to fly their "customers" from Paris to Dublin and then drop them off by car in NI, where they virtually have free access to the UK.

People seem to be travelling the breadth of Europe to get to Britain. The impression given is that the EU's borders are a joke.

How many are trying to "escape" from the UK to get back into the EU? Confused

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Post: #3   PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:04 pm Reply with quote
Mr Tibbs
Joined: 14 Apr 2011
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Location: ROC

 
Just a thought but now that Johnson has lost his majority and the Old Testament Tory party (aka the DUP) have become an irrelevance, why can't they go for the idea of having a border in the Irish Sea? Confused

Any opinions?

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Re: Irish Border: not just trade 
Post: #4   PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:51 pm Reply with quote
journo
Joined: 22 Mar 2009
Posts: 5467
Pictures: 17

 
Mr Tibbs wrote:
journo wrote:
So far, the only debates I have seen about NI-Republic of Ireland Border checks (or not) post-Brexit have focused on trade.

What about the movement of people?

No monitoring of that border/non-border line and the EU would have no control over those who entered EU member states.

Once anyone moved from NI into the Republic, they would have unchecked freedom of movement in the EU.


My understanding - from you good colleagues - is that it's more a case of things being the other way around.

Now that the Channel ports have increased security quite considerably a currently very lucrative route for the refugee smugglers is to fly their "customers" from Paris to Dublin and then drop them off by car in NI, where they virtually have free access to the UK.


People seem to be travelling the breadth of Europe to get to Britain. The impression given is that the EU's borders are a joke.

How many are trying to "escape" from the UK to get back into the EU? Confused


That's obvious Mr Tibbs and I knew I could rely on someone (other than me) to highlight the fact that those migrants already in the EU could then travel freely to the UK Smile

As for: "...why can't they go for the idea of having a border in the Irish Sea? Confused"

.....If I remember correctly there was a massive 'no' expressed regarding that proposal!
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Re: Irish Border: not just trade 
Post: #5   PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:09 am Reply with quote
jeba
Joined: 10 Sep 2015
Posts: 766
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journo wrote:

No monitoring of that border/non-border line and the EU would have no control over those who entered EU member states.

Once anyone moved from NI into the Republic, they would have unchecked freedom of movement in the EU.


Ireland isn´t part of Schengen so you´ll have to show your passport / ID card.
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Post: #6   PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:53 am Reply with quote
Smoke
Joined: 08 Mar 2017
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Spot on again Tibbsy we are all trying to escape to an EU country after this lengthy (to say the least!!) Charade ie Brexit Very Happy Very Happy
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Post: #7   PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:21 am Reply with quote
mouse
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 11263
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Location: kapparis,cyprus

 
Smoke wrote:
Spot on again Tibbsy we are all trying to escape to an EU country after this lengthy (to say the least!!) Charade ie Brexit Very Happy Very Happy


Most of us on this forum actually live in an EU Country, Cyprus.

And the reason many nasty foreigners are trying to get to the UK is because of Bad Government by the UK.

Think about it they don't want the EU (why) they would rather come to the UK.

And of course it won't stop those nasty foreigners Wink from outside an EU Country when and if we do come out of the EU.

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Re: Irish Border: not just trade 
Post: #8   PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:23 am Reply with quote
Mr Tibbs
Joined: 14 Apr 2011
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Location: ROC

 
journo wrote:
As for: "...why can't they go for the idea of having a border in the Irish Sea? Confused"

.....If I remember correctly there was a massive 'no' expressed regarding that proposal!


I don't believe that's true.

It was simply a case that Theresa May was reliant upon the DUP's votes for a majority and they perceived the idea as the first step on a slippery slope to a united Ireland. However, AFAIUI the Belfast Agreement stipulates that can't happen without a specific referendum vote in favour. Not that such a thing carries any weight in the UK nowadays of course Sad .

Johnson has lost his majority, doesn't need the DUP's votes so could resurrect the idea. That would meet both the EU's conditions, plus Ireland and the UK's.

That doesn't of course surmount the problem that the Remainers in parliament will vote against absolutely any agreement which leads to Brexit. As has been obvious for some time.

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Re: Irish Border: not just trade 
Post: #9   PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:33 am Reply with quote
mouse
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 11263
Pictures: 1
Location: kapparis,cyprus

 
Mr Tibbs wrote:
journo wrote:
As for: "...why can't they go for the idea of having a border in the Irish Sea? Confused"

.....If I remember correctly there was a massive 'no' expressed regarding that proposal!


I don't believe that's true.

It was simply a case that Theresa May was reliant upon the DUP's votes for a majority and they perceived the idea as the first step on a slippery slope to a united Ireland. However, AFAIUI the Belfast Agreement stipulates that can't happen without a specific referendum vote in favour. Not that such a thing carries any weight in the UK nowadays of course Sad .

Johnson has lost his majority, doesn't need the DUP's votes so could resurrect the idea. That would meet both the EU's conditions, plus Ireland and the UK's.

That doesn't of course surmount the problem that the Remainers in parliament will vote against absolutely any agreement which leads to Brexit. As has been obvious for some time.


Is it not the case though Tibby that many of the Remainers as you call them are actually Brexiteers who just don't want to leave without a deal knowing the damage it would cause to the Country.

As another poster has put it, would you rather jump out of an aeroplane with a parachute or take a chance and jump out without one.

You are a Military man, what would you do. Wink

Oh! I forgot you would be under orders so you would take the second option without hesitation or question. Laughing

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Re: Irish Border: not just trade 
Post: #10   PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:48 am Reply with quote
Mr Tibbs
Joined: 14 Apr 2011
Posts: 11070
Pictures: 0
Location: ROC

 
mouse wrote:
Is it not the case though Tibby that many of the Remainers as you call them are actually Brexiteers who just don't want to leave without a deal knowing the damage it would cause to the Country.

As another poster has put it, would you rather jump out of an aeroplane with a parachute or take a chance and jump out without one.

You are a Military man, what would you do. Wink

Oh! I forgot you would be under orders so you would take the second option without hesitation or question. Laughing


No. Very Happy

Those, like Hammond/Grieve who pay lip-service to the referendum result and insist they believe in it but are just against no deal are fully aware of the situation. May's deal's been rejected. The EU won't renegotiate it (why should they when all this is going on?). There's a vote against no deal, also backed by these people. Therefore it leaves no way out. No deal opposition is a lie covering their desire to stay in the EU.

The airplane analogy is rubbish, it's been floated a couple of times before and in this case has been plagiarised by some Canadian satirist. It obviously tickles your fancy though. Wink

I left the military nearly 20 years ago, worked in civvy street for 4 years before and 11 years afterwards. You're stereotyping again and I suspect haven't got a bleedin' clue about the profession or it's people, anymore than I have yours.

How about leaving the insults to others? Wink

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Re: Irish Border: not just trade 
Post: #11   PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:58 am Reply with quote
mouse
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 11263
Pictures: 1
Location: kapparis,cyprus

 
Mr Tibbs wrote:
mouse wrote:
Is it not the case though Tibby that many of the Remainers as you call them are actually Brexiteers who just don't want to leave without a deal knowing the damage it would cause to the Country.

As another poster has put it, would you rather jump out of an aeroplane with a parachute or take a chance and jump out without one.

You are a Military man, what would you do. Wink

Oh! I forgot you would be under orders so you would take the second option without hesitation or question. Laughing


No. Very Happy

Those, like Hammond/Grieve who pay lip-service to the referendum result and insist they believe in it but are just against no deal are fully aware of the situation. May's deal's been rejected. The EU won't renegotiate it (why should they when all this is going on?). There's a vote against no deal, also backed by these people. Therefore it leaves no way out. No deal opposition is a lie covering their desire to stay in the EU.

The airplane analogy is rubbish, it's been floated a couple of times before and in this case has been plagiarised by some Canadian satirist. It obviously tickles your fancy though. Wink

I left the military nearly 20 years ago, worked in civvy street for 4 years before and 11 years afterwards. You're stereotyping again and I suspect haven't got a bleedin' clue about the profession or it's people, anymore than I have yours.

How about leaving the insults to others? Wink


It was not meant as an insult.

More of an accusation really. Laughing Laughing



But really I thought I would try to bring a bit of humour into it.

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Re: Irish Border: not just trade 
Post: #12   PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:04 am Reply with quote
Mr Tibbs
Joined: 14 Apr 2011
Posts: 11070
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Location: ROC

 
mouse wrote:
But really I thought I would try to bring a bit of humour into it.


As you often do and which is generally appreciated.

Here though I'm floating the idea of a deal which, on the face of it, would be acceptable to the EU, UK and Ireland, although not of course the DUP. Just an idea.

I still think though even in that situation the current parliament would reject it. As it would absolutely any deal that was negotiated. It's a farce.

There badly needs to be a General Election, which hopefully would resolve the situation (but not necessarily of course! Laughing )

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Re: Irish Border: not just trade 
Post: #13   PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:44 am Reply with quote
Hudswell
Joined: 01 Mar 2012
Posts: 1120
Pictures: 0
Location: Kato Paphos and Lincoln

 
Mr Tibbs wrote:
journo wrote:
So far, the only debates I have seen about NI-Republic of Ireland Border checks (or not) post-Brexit have focused on trade.

What about the movement of people?

No monitoring of that border/non-border line and the EU would have no control over those who entered EU member states.

Once anyone moved from NI into the Republic, they would have unchecked freedom of movement in the EU.


My understanding - from you good colleagues - is that it's more a case of things being the other way around.

Now that the Channel ports have increased security quite considerably a currently very lucrative route for the refugee smugglers is to fly their "customers" from Paris to Dublin and then drop them off by car in NI, where they virtually have free access to the UK.

People seem to be travelling the breadth of Europe to get to Britain. The impression given is that the EU's borders are a joke.

How many are trying to "escape" from the UK to get back into the EU? Confused


A bit late to this post, but absolutely correct free movement to NI and Eire Citizens across the border will continue unhindered whatever the “solution” to the trade agreements. And I can’t see a rush for UK citizens to enter the EU via Eire...which as Jeba points out is not part of Schengen, so passport checks take place anyway. Brexit is not a threat to the Good Friday Agreement, an issue laboured by the NI PM and the EU, a bat to beat the UK with, it is an issue of trade, which “should” have been easy!

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Re: Irish Border: not just trade 
Post: #14   PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:47 pm Reply with quote
mouse
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 11263
Pictures: 1
Location: kapparis,cyprus

 
Hudswell wrote:
Mr Tibbs wrote:
journo wrote:
So far, the only debates I have seen about NI-Republic of Ireland Border checks (or not) post-Brexit have focused on trade.

What about the movement of people?

No monitoring of that border/non-border line and the EU would have no control over those who entered EU member states.

Once anyone moved from NI into the Republic, they would have unchecked freedom of movement in the EU.


My understanding - from you good colleagues - is that it's more a case of things being the other way around.

Now that the Channel ports have increased security quite considerably a currently very lucrative route for the refugee smugglers is to fly their "customers" from Paris to Dublin and then drop them off by car in NI, where they virtually have free access to the UK.

People seem to be travelling the breadth of Europe to get to Britain. The impression given is that the EU's borders are a joke.

How many are trying to "escape" from the UK to get back into the EU? Confused


A bit late to this post, but absolutely correct free movement to NI and Eire Citizens across the border will continue unhindered whatever the “solution” to the trade agreements. And I can’t see a rush for UK citizens to enter the EU via Eire...which as Jeba points out is not part of Schengen, so passport checks take place anyway. Brexit is not a threat to the Good Friday Agreement, an issue laboured by the NI PM and the EU, a bat to beat the UK with, it is an issue of trade, which “should” have been easy!


Rolling Eyes Perhaps you should have been in the negotiations team, as it is so easy.

You give them orders and they must obey no matter what.

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Re: Irish Border: not just trade 
Post: #15   PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:53 pm Reply with quote
Kwacka
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Mr Tibbs wrote:
mouse wrote:
But really I thought I would try to bring a bit of humour into it.


As you often do and which is generally appreciated.

Here though I'm floating the idea of a deal which, on the face of it, would be acceptable to the EU, UK and Ireland, although not of course the DUP. Just an idea.

I still think though even in that situation the current parliament would reject it. As it would absolutely any deal that was negotiated. It's a farce.

There badly needs to be a General Election, which hopefully would resolve the situation (but not necessarily of course! Laughing )


The idea of a border in the Irish Sea was first suggested, I believe, by the EU and was (as you have said) quickly shot down by may who depended on the DUP for a majority.

How about a dual general election and a third referendum two separate ballot papers, one for parliamentary the other for EU-related choices?

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Re: Irish Border: not just trade 
Post: #16   PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:19 pm Reply with quote
Hudswell
Joined: 01 Mar 2012
Posts: 1120
Pictures: 0
Location: Kato Paphos and Lincoln

 
mouse wrote:
Hudswell wrote:
Mr Tibbs wrote:
journo wrote:
So far, the only debates I have seen about NI-Republic of Ireland Border checks (or not) post-Brexit have focused on trade.

What about the movement of people?

No monitoring of that border/non-border line and the EU would have no control over those who entered EU member states.

Once anyone moved from NI into the Republic, they would have unchecked freedom of movement in the EU.


My understanding - from you good colleagues - is that it's more a case of things being the other way around.

Now that the Channel ports have increased security quite considerably a currently very lucrative route for the refugee smugglers is to fly their "customers" from Paris to Dublin and then drop them off by car in NI, where they virtually have free access to the UK.

People seem to be travelling the breadth of Europe to get to Britain. The impression given is that the EU's borders are a joke.

How many are trying to "escape" from the UK to get back into the EU? Confused


A bit late to this post, but absolutely correct free movement to NI and Eire Citizens across the border will continue unhindered whatever the “solution” to the trade agreements. And I can’t see a rush for UK citizens to enter the EU via Eire...which as Jeba points out is not part of Schengen, so passport checks take place anyway. Brexit is not a threat to the Good Friday Agreement, an issue laboured by the NI PM and the EU, a bat to beat the UK with, it is an issue of trade, which “should” have been easy!


Rolling Eyes Perhaps you should have been in the negotiations team, as it is so easy.

You give them orders and they must obey no matter what.


Do you have something against the military? An organisation you obviously have no experience or knowledge of its culture of but insist on making inane silly little statements about. The EU have insisted that a that any trade agreement comes with it the principle of freedom of movement, why? It has made trade agreements with other countries that do not include that “demand”, somwhy the UK? The UK is insistent that freedom of movement is not on the table...deadlock.

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Re: Irish Border: not just trade 
Post: #17   PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 9:03 am Reply with quote
mouse
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 11263
Pictures: 1
Location: kapparis,cyprus

 
Hudswell wrote:
mouse wrote:
Hudswell wrote:
Mr Tibbs wrote:
journo wrote:
So far, the only debates I have seen about NI-Republic of Ireland Border checks (or not) post-Brexit have focused on trade.

What about the movement of people?

No monitoring of that border/non-border line and the EU would have no control over those who entered EU member states.

Once anyone moved from NI into the Republic, they would have unchecked freedom of movement in the EU.


My understanding - from you good colleagues - is that it's more a case of things being the other way around.

Now that the Channel ports have increased security quite considerably a currently very lucrative route for the refugee smugglers is to fly their "customers" from Paris to Dublin and then drop them off by car in NI, where they virtually have free access to the UK.

People seem to be travelling the breadth of Europe to get to Britain. The impression given is that the EU's borders are a joke.

How many are trying to "escape" from the UK to get back into the EU? Confused


A bit late to this post, but absolutely correct free movement to NI and Eire Citizens across the border will continue unhindered whatever the “solution” to the trade agreements. And I can’t see a rush for UK citizens to enter the EU via Eire...which as Jeba points out is not part of Schengen, so passport checks take place anyway. Brexit is not a threat to the Good Friday Agreement, an issue laboured by the NI PM and the EU, a bat to beat the UK with, it is an issue of trade, which “should” have been easy!


Rolling Eyes Perhaps you should have been in the negotiations team, as it is so easy.

You give them orders and they must obey no matter what.


Do you have something against the military? An organisation you obviously have no experience or knowledge of its culture of but insist on making inane silly little statements about. The EU have insisted that a that any trade agreement comes with it the principle of freedom of movement, why? It has made trade agreements with other countries that do not include that “demand”, somwhy the UK? The UK is insistent that freedom of movement is not on the table...deadlock.


Not at all.

Both my parents were in the Forces.

My Father did 23 years, including 7 years in Cyprus in the 50's and 60's.

My Brother did 23 years before moving over to the M.O.D.

I was and still am a Captain, and retain that title until I tender that office.

I am not at Liberty to tell you any more information.

What I do object to is Ex service personal who have not the foggiest about what the UK was like in the late 60's and 70's when Britain was known as the Sick man of Europe, as at that time they were probably serving elsewhere.


Perhaps you can tell us all what Industries the UK have now that the Rest of the World might be interested in.

Shouldn't take long. Wink

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Re: Irish Border: not just trade 
Post: #18   PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:11 am Reply with quote
Mr Tibbs
Joined: 14 Apr 2011
Posts: 11070
Pictures: 0
Location: ROC

 
mouse wrote:
I was and still am a Captain, and retain that title until I tender that office.

I am not at Liberty to tell you any more information.


Oh no! You don't realise what you've done Kev. In one - rash - post you've become..........................................................




Very Happy Wink

Is that Woody?

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Re: Irish Border: not just trade 
Post: #19   PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:21 pm Reply with quote
Hudswell
Joined: 01 Mar 2012
Posts: 1120
Pictures: 0
Location: Kato Paphos and Lincoln

 
mouse wrote:
Hudswell wrote:


Do you have something against the military? An organisation you obviously have no experience or knowledge of its culture of but insist on making inane silly little statements about. The EU have insisted that a that any trade agreement comes with it the principle of freedom of movement, why? It has made trade agreements with other countries that do not include that “demand”, somwhy the UK? The UK is insistent that freedom of movement is not on the table...deadlock.


Not at all.

Both my parents were in the Forces.

My Father did 23 years, including 7 years in Cyprus in the 50's and 60's.

My Brother did 23 years before moving over to the M.O.D.

I was and still am a Captain, and retain that title until I tender that office.

I am not at Liberty to tell you any more information.

What I do object to is Ex service personal who have not the foggiest about what the UK was like in the late 60's and 70's when Britain was known as the Sick man of Europe, as at that time they were probably serving elsewhere.


Perhaps you can tell us all what Industries the UK have now that the Rest of the World might be interested in.

Shouldn't take long. Wink


Oh dear, don’t worry I promise not to tell anyone. I actually served from the mid 70’s until 2013, and when I joined I was old enough and intelligent enough to understand the political situation at the time. And unless your name is Walt, which I suspect it may be, retaining the rank of Captain which implies you are still serving and if you were active during the late Sixties early Seventies, then you must be older than me....is no mean feat. SF Branch of the ACF perhaps...

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Re: Irish Border: not just trade 
Post: #20   PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 3:23 pm Reply with quote
mouse
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 11263
Pictures: 1
Location: kapparis,cyprus

 
You are quick Rolling Eyes

I am older than you.

Retired out here in 2003.

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Irish Border: not just trade 
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