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Posted By: Kwacka

Interesting graphical representation of various countries debt/GDP/growth.
What Country has the Most Unsustainable Debt? (hint: not Greece)



Posted By: devil

This is very misleading. It is true that Japan has an enormous debt, but it is almost 100% contained within the country. It owes little in currencies other than the yen. This is not the same as nearly any other country which has foreign debt, ie, debt in currencies other than its own. Poor analogy: if you ask for €10 from your other half, you create a debt that you will probably never pay back. If you ask the same from Costas down the road, the debt will stay until you pay it back and is therefore a liability.

Posted By: Dave B

  • devil wrote:

    Poor analogy: if you ask for €10 from your other half, you create a debt that you will probably never pay back. If you ask the same from Costas down the road, the debt will stay until you pay it back and is therefore a liability.

Costas knows he won't get it back - this is Cyprus, home of the NPL. :-({|=

Posted By: badger

I'm with you on this Pete, good post. Phil

Posted By: bubblechris

    Quote:
  • As long as countries are using borrowed funds to successfully stimulate their economies, they will be able to pay back their debts on time.

Greece and Cyprus's problem?
So why does everyone believe Cyprus's economy is improving or has improved?

Posted By: Dave B

  • bubblechris wrote:

    So why does everyone believe Cyprus's economy is improving or has improved?

Living in north London Chris you probably won't see it - but if you were in business here you would, but you probably would be in denial because the initiatives to undo the communist damage have come from the Troika and the centre right.
So Chris how are things in London these days with a Conservative Mayor and a majority Tory government? I bet you are a strong supported of Corbyn? :D

Posted By: Pete The Highwayman

morning corbyn is a dog we already have the ruskies invading our airspace and sending ships down the chanell and that fool wants to disband the armed forces and get rid of trident oh for another churchill the only thing i would give corbyn is a room in the tower of london the place for all traitors angry pete

Posted By: Byker

  • Pete The Highwayman wrote:
    morning corbyn is a dog we already have the ruskies
    invading our airspace and sending ships down the chanell
    and that fool wants to disband the armed forces
    and get rid of trident oh for another churchill
    the only thing i would give corbyn is a room
    in the tower of london the place for all traitors
    angry pete

Say it like you see it Pete! :clap:





Posted By: Pete The Highwayman

morning byker and thank you pete

Posted By: Kwacka

So there weren't Russian aircraft invading British airspace and Russian ships sailing down the international waters of the channel before Corbyn was elected leader of the Labour Party?
Regarding abolishing the armed forces, you've been reading that 'left-wing media' again, haven't you?
The DM headline :
    Quote:
  • How wonderful it'd be if we scrapped the Army, he ranted.. But Corbyn's call is dismissed as 'madness' by Tory MP

What he actually said (reported in paragraph 5, (it does take a lot of hard work and concentration to reach paragraph 5 for the bulk of DM readers, I accept)).
    Quote:
  • Wouldn’t it be wonderful if every politician around the world instead of taking pride in the size of their Armed Forces did what Costa Rica have done and abolished their Army, and took pride in the fact they don’t have an Army.

And wouldn't it be wonderful if you & Byker got a room? :D

Posted By: Pete The Highwayman

yes kwacka me and byker sing off the same music sheet and must people in my country not yours would give me and byker a room at the savoy they would give you a room in broadmoor pete

Posted By: Pete The Highwayman

hey kwacka now there is three of us singing off the same hymn sheet me byker and badger pete

Posted By: Pete The Highwayman

well kwacka i would much prefer a 25 year old gorgeus blond pete

Posted By: Kwacka

  • Pete The Highwayman wrote:
    hey kwacka now there is three of us singing
    off the same hymn sheet me byker and badger
    pete

How sweet! :)
But do all 3 want to 'get a room'?
BTW, any answers to my comments about the crap printed about Corbyn, or is it still nothing but ad hominem attacks & straw-man fallacies?
And why has the UK's debt almost doubled since 2010?
(Apologies for getting back to the topic).

Posted By: Pete The Highwayman

kwacka dont you read the papers or listen to the news or do you just live in this cocoon called cyprus dear old mr brown left the tories a mountain of debt and a mountain of a benifit system and dont try to defend the indefenceable hooray for england pete



Posted By: Kwacka

  • Pete The Highwayman wrote:
    kwacka dont you read the papers or listen to the news
    or do you just live in this cocoon called cyprus
    dear old mr brown left the tories a mountain of debt
    and a mountain of a benifit system
    and dont try to defend the indefenceable
    hooray for england pete

But you only read one comic (but with 4 different names), why don't you widen your horizons all newspapers don't have the same distortions of reality (they have different distortions)?
See this .
The Dave 'Dick' Cameron & Osborne often use weasel words like 'the debt we inherited' or 'the debt that was left behind' but never say 'the debt that was caused by labour' - that's only said by their 'useful idiots'.

Posted By: Byker

  • Pete The Highwayman wrote:
    yes kwacka me and byker sing off the same music sheet
    and must people in my country not yours would give
    me and byker a room at the savoy they would give you
    a room in broadmoor
    pete

He had a room in Broadmoor, or somewhere like it Pete, the only thing questionable is on which side of the desk he sat....
But I do have one question: Why do the Luvvie brigade alway quote the Daily Mail?...I thought it was supposed to be diametrically against their beliefs....
The only time I read it is when they quote it :roll:

Posted By: devil

  • Pete The Highwayman wrote:

    dear old mr brown left the tories a mountain of debt

Which debt is now over £600 billion higher, since Mr Brown left, so your beloved Conservatives have changed Ben Nevis into Everest (which is still gaining height), currently at nearly £1.6 trillion and increasing by over £5000 every second. As a taxpayer (I assume), you now owe £44,169 as your share of the national debt. Makes you feel good how Mr Cameron is looking after your finances, doesn't it?

Posted By: Pete The Highwayman

hi byker i have read the daily mail allmy lifeiread it when it was a broadsheet to me alex brummer tom utley and littlejohn are three very good writers especialy littlejohn he is not afraid to speak his mind but that kwacka reads the telegraph toffee nose paper and probably after the daily worker the next best left wing paper there is well when i was a boy i played right wing now im a man i am right wing i domt sing the red flag i sing the blue one pete

Posted By: Kwacka

  • Byker wrote:

    But I do have one question: Why do the Luvvie brigade alway quote the Daily Mail?...I thought it was supposed to be diametrically against their beliefs....
    The only time I read it is when they quote it :roll:

As I'm the only one who referenced the Daily Mail's article on Corbyn wanting to disband the armed forces, I assume you STILL think I'm a member of the acting profession. :roll:
The DM is one of several newspapers (UK & around the world) I read online to gain a broader base of current events.
Whilst reading PTH's regarding Corbyn wanting to disband the army I recalled reading this in the DM so was able to reproduce both the headline AND the actual statement to demonstrate that the DM & PTH's comment was inaccurate.
Being a 'luvvie' (apparently) I find it easier to offer evidence that can be supported when I reply to something inaccurate rather than merely state my opinion and get into 'my dad can beat your dad up' exercise.
BTW, PTH, the Torygraph is nearly as bad as the DM & Express. I note that Corbyn has been 'stripped' of the tile 'The Right Honourable' after 'snubbing' the Queen. I understand that he he failed to attend a meeting that he didn't have to go to, and the title is only administered by attending a meeting you don't have to go to

Posted By: devil

  • Pete The Highwayman wrote:
    probably after the
    daily worker

Did no one ever tell you that the Daily Worker ceased publication in 1966?

Posted By: Kwacka

  • devil wrote:
    • Pete The Highwayman wrote:
      probably after the
      daily worker

    Did no one ever tell you that the Daily Worker ceased publication in 1966?

Does this make you a 'luvvie' too, Devil?
Or just someone who respects accuracy?



Posted By: Pete The Highwayman

devil i can pay my 44 grand can you pay yours or would you rather vote for your beloved labour or communist and if you dont vote you have no right to comment pete

Posted By: devil

  • Pete The Highwayman wrote:
    devil i can pay my 44 grand can you pay yours
    or would you rather vote for your beloved labour
    or communist and if you dont vote you have no right to comment
    pete

I could certainly pay the €31,339 as my share of the national debt in this country. And for your info, I'm not affiliated nor do I support any political party in any country. I just read more serious news sources than yourself, but with a difference, I try to gather both sides of any argument from different origins and judge for myself what seems to be the most suitable solutions. In any case, I never form an opinion from a single partisan newspaper noted for sensationalism and inaccurate reporting.

Posted By: Pete The Highwayman

alright devil i no you have swallowed the encyclopedia brittanica i have swallowed the back streets and alleys of london at least i am not frightened to say who i vote for and you said you dont vote you have no right to comment on things in england pete

Posted By: Pete The Highwayman

no kwacka i did not no the daily worker ceased publication in 1966 i was to busy cheering and rejoicing in my wonderfull excelleny country winning the world cup pete

Posted By: mouse

  • Pete The Highwayman wrote:
    alright devil i no you have swallowed the encyclopedia brittanica
    i have swallowed the back streets and alleys of london
    at least i am not frightened to say who i vote for
    and you said you dont vote you have no right to comment
    on things in england
    pete

Everybody on this forum has the right to comment and an opinion on any subject.
I happen to agree with Devil and I have if I wanted too the right to vote.
I also do not belong to a political party, but I also think Corbyn is the wrong man of a poor bunch to lead the Labour party.
But Pete, why let the truth get in the way of sensationalism.
Labour did not cause the last economic crisis in 2007/8 It was a World crisis started in the USA.
And why is the National debt twice as much as what it was under the last Labour Government. But again why let facts get in the way of lies. :roll:

Posted By: Pete The Highwayman

mouse i have seen the labour party get in power 4 or 5 times in my lifetime and each time we were left in a stateas they said about harold wilson plug him into alie detector and it would fuse and i am sorry for your misguided opinion far better brains than mine always say dont vote dont commentits always the non voters who have most to say my own brother was the biggest culprit and he felt the lash of my tongue on many occasion pete

Posted By: Byker


A lot of the usual smoke and mirror BS here, as can be seen the UK borrowing is on the way down. Exactly as it was when the last Labour government took over, it doesn't take them long to blow surpluses though. :roll:



Posted By: mouse

  • Byker wrote:

    A lot of the usual smoke and mirror BS here, as can be seen the UK borrowing is on the way down. Exactly as it was when the last Labour government took over, it doesn't take them long to blow surpluses though. :roll:

Hold on a minute Labour took over in 1996 I believe, it then went the other way for a few years, it only started really going up during 2008 the year of the World financial crisis.
From 2010 the figures for borrowing are down to the Tories. It got so high under the Tories it has had to come down sometime, but it is still higher than most years under Labour.

Posted By: Kwacka

  • Byker wrote:

    A lot of the usual smoke and mirror BS here, as can be seen the UK borrowing is on the way down. Exactly as it was when the last Labour government took over, it doesn't take them long to blow surpluses though. :roll:

The graph shows annual deficit has been reduced, but the debt (which is what was being talked about) is still increasing.
The debt will continue to rise, unless there is growth in the UK economy.

Posted By: LynSab

Didn't UK taxpayers contribute to Cyprus's bailout too? http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/389444/Cyprus-bail-out-will-cost-British-taxpayers-38-2m I don't think the UK should bail out Greece Portugal Spain or anyone else for that matter....so others can live in a tax haven :roll: pay far less tax than ourselves, have less stringent bank regulations, then they go bankrupt and WE pay towards the price of that failure... Hence why I am of the opinion we should exit the EU, save a fortune daily (£55 million) most will still trade with the UK anyway...and in a few years our debt is gone... Why can't we do that then? :lol: answers on a postcard... :wink:

Posted By: Pete The Highwayman

mouse i have paid into the system over here for 60 years been very lucky with sickness never taken a penny in benefits but if you come to england come to my firm and speak to the drivers and warehousemen who were born and bred in the town but the council wont even put them on the housing list so at great expence they have to rent privatly but the country colonials dont they get council houses and by the way thats not racist thats fact i dont no what world some of you live on but it certainly aint mine pete

Posted By: Kwacka

  • LynSab wrote:
    Didn't UK taxpayers contribute to Cyprus's bailout too?
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/389444/Cyprus-bail-out-will-cost-British-taxpayers-38-2m

The article states that this is part of the IMF loan to Cyprus.
In addition, the IMF is not a EU body.
BTW PTH, the 'country colonials' (I assume you mean countries that were previously part of the British Empire) aren't anything to do with the EU.
And I wonder who sold off the council houses so your drivers couldn't get one? And immigrants aren't entitled to such houses, only refugees; all others are 'voluntarily homeless'.

Posted By: Pete The Highwayman

lynsab i dont mo you but i agree with you cntirely well said pete

Posted By: mouse

  • Pete The Highwayman wrote:
    mouse i have paid into the system over here for 60 years
    been very lucky with sickness never taken a penny in benefits
    but if you come to england come to my firm and speak to the drivers
    and warehousemen who were born and bred in the town
    but the council wont even put them on the housing list
    so at great expence they have to rent privatly
    but the country colonials dont they get council houses
    and by the way thats not racist thats fact i dont no
    what world some of you live on but it certainly aint mine
    pete

Pete my old fruit who do you suppose the Country Colonials as you name them support. They certainly would not be Labour supporters.
So I don't know what you are trying to say.





Posted By: devil

  • Byker wrote:

    A lot of the usual smoke and mirror BS here, as can be seen the UK borrowing is on the way down. Exactly as it was when the last Labour government took over, it doesn't take them long to blow surpluses though. :roll:

You have misunderstood your graph: it refers to one source of borrowing, that from the commercial banks which some here say is money that does not exist. It does not refer to the national debt. The following graph shows what it is all about and I took it from Pete's favourite paper, so it must be gospel truth. BTW, note that the rate of increase was lower in the Blair/Brown years than in the Cameron years, putting the lie to the Conservative claim that they inherited the debt. Let's see how Pete argues that one out!


Posted By: Pete The Highwayman

mouse i deal with some of them and they dont spend there money in england if they canhelp it it goes back to yhere country of origin or amongst themselves dont get me on this mouse because blowing my own trumpet i no more than you i deal with some of these people and see the way they live so leave it there pete

Posted By: mouse

  • Pete The Highwayman wrote:
    mouse
    i deal with some of them and they dont spend there money
    in england if they canhelp it it goes back to yhere country of origin
    or amongst themselves dont get me on this mouse because
    blowing my own trumpet i no more than you i deal with some
    of these people and see the way they live so leave it there
    pete

Yes Pete, I know that, but who do you think they vote for a why.

Posted By: mouse

  • devil wrote:
    • Byker wrote:

      A lot of the usual smoke and mirror BS here, as can be seen the UK borrowing is on the way down. Exactly as it was when the last Labour government took over, it doesn't take them long to blow surpluses though. :roll:

    You have misunderstood your graph: it refers to one source of borrowing, that from the commercial banks which some here say is money that does not exist. It does not refer to the national debt. The following graph shows what it is all about and I took it from Pete's favourite paper, so it must be gospel truth. BTW, note that the rate of increase was lower in the Blair/Brown years than in the Cameron years, putting the lie to the Conservative claim that they inherited the debt. Let's see how Pete argues that one out!

I think you are being unfair devil putting facts and figures from a Tory rag. :wink:
Plus of course you are being unfair by putting facts and figures before lies.

Posted By: Kwacka

  • mouse wrote:

    Hold on a minute Labour took over in 1996 I believe, it then went the other way for a few years, it only started really going up during 2008 the year of the World financial crisis.

    Quote:
  • They were fundamentally economic in focus; not unreasonably so given the undeniable crisis in the economy and the public finances which the coalition inherited from their predecessors. Though the blame game would continue (and still does), the reality was that the crash of 2008 was a global event , more or less accentuated in the UK by the centrality of financial services within the economy and then by government policy and spending (and probably in that order).

Finn, Mike, (2015) "CONCLUSION: THE NET COALITION EFFECT" in Seldon, A. and Finn, M. The Coalition Effect 2010-2015 . Cambridge University Press p. 602

Posted By: Pete The Highwayman

mouse i think they would vote for who ever would give them the most thats not tory theey are trying to curb benifits i have no problem with the needy but as for the majority on benifits i would make them work or starve and if you want it you can find work pete

Posted By: mouse

  • Pete The Highwayman wrote:
    mouse
    i think they would vote for who ever would give them the most
    thats not tory theey are trying to curb benifits i have no problem
    with the needy but as for the majority on benifits i would
    make them work or starve and if you want it you can find work
    pete

Pete the rich get richer, so who do you think they vote for these Colonial Country folk.
I agree benefits need to be curbed, but it is the poor this Government hits the most, not the wealthy. The Tories have been in power now for more than 5 years, what have they actually done to curb benefits apart from rhetoric and blame.

Posted By: ProVox

Devil:
    Quote:
  • This is very misleading. It is true that Japan has an enormous debt, but it is almost 100% contained within the country. It owes little in currencies other than the yen. This is not the same as nearly any other country which has foreign debt, ie, debt in currencies other than its own.

Japan has a sovereign currency, this means if they need more money to spend internally, they can create it out of thin air simply as a book keeping entry on a computer. The same happens in the UK, the debt in £’s is not the problem. As you pointed out previously ..... the Labour Government under Bevin created a massive social programme ( which created the NHS among other benefits ) at a time when not only did we not have two pennies to rub together ..... we owed the US billions of DOLLARS. We then had to earn dollars to repay the external debt but the internal debt, even then, was just a book-keeping entry, although note and coin was a much greater portion of the money in circulation about 40%(?) in the late f40's. It has been this way for generations.
How can there be a debt ( liability ) unless it has to be repaid to the source of the debt, which in the Japans case and to an great extent the UK case, is an entry on an accounting balance sheet. There never was any ' money ' ...... only debt! Red ink on paper!
What is of far greater significance is the trade balance i.e. deficit/surplus.
    Quote:
  • ....... that from the commercial banks which some here say is money that does not exist.

Maybe you are beginning to see the light through your sarcasm.
The ONLY assets that banks have is the money you and I and every other person and business, deposits with the bank. These are bank reserves! They CANNOT lend them, they are effectively untouchable. The rest they create as many times the deposited amount through creating DEBT, not money ( they create a ‘line-of-credit’ ..... they do not loan money, because they don’t have any !!!!!). It becomes currency when the debt is paid into another account by issuing a cheque or bank transfer on the debt account.
This is why when the bank goes belly up ..... the depositors are unsecured creditors ....... there is zilch to secure the debts to because the debt only exists as a book keeping entry. You can’t get blood out of a stone!

Posted By: ProVox

I make no comment on all Corbyn’s proposals but the one that has my interest is the PQE .... it demonstrates to me that he does understand how the money supply system works.
In the thread ‘ What country has the most unsustainable debt’ Devil pointed out that although Japan had the highest, it was almost 100% in Japanese Yen. The Japanese government borrows money from the commercial banks who then create a debt ( extend credit ) in exchange for Government Bonds (IOU’s). The Government spends the credit into their economy and at that moment creates a whole load of new Yen. This is Quantitive Easing ..... they increase the quantity of currency in circulation!
What Corbyn is proposing, with his so called 'QE for people' is almost exactly the same thing as the Japs are doing and have been doing for a long time. But what he is proposing is to have the Central bank issue the currency directly, not as a loan against Bonds but as an ‘ investment ’. Effectively he cuts out the middle men ..... the commercial banks. The injected currency boosts the economy, increases the money supply, creates more jobs, which boosts spending and thus new businesses and all without creating debt.

Instead of then having to recover the debt through taxation to pay back the commercial banks 'loans' as per the current system, loans which you then have to re-create and re-borrow to put back the currency otherwise you deflate the economy, there is no debt and the currency recovered as tax goes straight back into the economy as required.
With Corbyn's proposal at no time does the country have a debt to repay nor the interest that goes with debt!
I think the guy has a very good understanding of the monetary system in the practical application. The only losers will be the commercial banks. They will no longer be asked to help create the currency for infrastructure projects or investment in R&D, we could start building our own ships and aircraft ( which we were very good at ) and produce a lot of the goods we now import from places like China.
All that needs to be done then is to balance the external trading i.e. control imports and try to balance imports to exports.
It is just common sense!
:roll:


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