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Posted By: essence

Its taken time for Cameron and his chum Osbourne to screw up the UK economy...but they are hitting their stride now,big time !!!Jessops,HMV,and Blockbuster, this weeks hat-trick failure...with plenty more predicted to fail in the weeks ahead.Camerons next masterstroke appears to be "fogging the UK--EU relationship",ensuring Europeans thinking twice before investing in the UK.Also this week 800 plus jobs to go in the latest round of cuts in Manchester town hall...police officers wages slashed by £4000 per annum...never mind,state pensions set to rise...just have to work longer and pay more...if your on "pay as you learn"...doesnt apply to the self employed...your lucky to have a job I hear the shout.Deficit increased,borrowing more,no "plan B"...safe to say were screwed...only good thing is that the most stupidest "Sun reader"wont vote tory or liberal again ...surely?



Posted By: geoffreys

  • essence wrote:
    Its taken time for Cameron and his chum Osbourne to screw up the UK economy...but they are hitting their stride now,big time !!!Jessops,HMV,and Blockbuster, this weeks hat-trick failure...with plenty more predicted to fail in the weeks ahead.Camerons next masterstroke appears to be "fogging the UK--EU relationship",ensuring Europeans thinking twice before investing in the UK.Also this week 800 plus jobs to go in the latest round of cuts in Manchester town hall...police officers wages slashed by £4000 per annum...never mind,state pensions set to rise...just have to work longer and pay more...if your on "pay as you learn"...doesnt apply to the self employed...your lucky to have a job I hear the shout.Deficit increased,borrowing more,no "plan B"...safe to say were screwed...only good thing is that the most stupidest "Sun reader"wont vote tory or liberal again ...surely?

Why not? They were daft enough to vote Blair in twice and then Brown.
All as "suggested" by "The Sun".
Geoff

Posted By: Byker

  • essence wrote:
    Its ....BlahBlahBlah...

Regarding Jessops;
    Quote:
  • "Sales at the 193-store chain were hit by both the increasing popularity of camera phones and heavy discounting of digital cameras by online retailers."
    Read more: http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2260918/Jessops-shut-187-stores-today-loss-1-370-jobs.html#ixzz2IIjVzL14

I think ypu'll find that's covered by the term "competition"...Something Labwhore supporters are undoubtedly afraid of...:roll:
HMV and Blockbuster went down as nobody buys CDs or rents DVDs anymore, they download them from the internet...Again "competition" or some might even say "progress", another word the Luddites in the red (or pink) corners don't like.
Never mind, I'm sure there's no point in talking to you about the real world, you keep finger painting pictures of the world as you want to see it... #-o

Posted By: LynSab

  • essence wrote:
    Its taken time for Cameron and his chum Osbourne to screw up the UK economy...but they are hitting their stride now,big time !!!Jessops,HMV,and Blockbuster, this weeks hat-trick failure...with plenty more predicted to fail in the weeks ahead.Camerons next masterstroke appears to be "fogging the UK--EU relationship",ensuring Europeans thinking twice before investing in the UK.Also this week 800 plus jobs to go in the latest round of cuts in Manchester town hall...police officers wages slashed by £4000 per annum...never mind,state pensions set to rise...just have to work longer and pay more...if your on "pay as you learn"...doesnt apply to the self employed...your lucky to have a job I hear the shout.Deficit increased,borrowing more,no "plan B"...safe to say were screwed...only good thing is that the most stupidest "Sun reader"wont vote tory or liberal again ...surely?

It's a changing world, or havent you noticed, do you think Cyprus will not be changing very drastically in the future? I think Cyprus is about to see many more changes than the UK sadly.

Posted By: ProVox

Essence: Your OP is an incredible view of the situation and rather short sighted! :roll:
Do you really believe that Cameron, Osborne, Clegg ( in fact any leader ) carries the responsibility for the economic failures in the UK any more than Papadopolous or Christofias are responsible for the failures in Cyprus? I think you give them far more credit for their leadership qualities, influence and power than they could possibly deserve or warrant.
All you can say is that none of them did anything to reverse the trend because they have never tackled the root of the problem. They cannot resolve the basic causes because they have no more control of the economic woes than a canoe has going down the rapids! All they can do is try to fend off until the water gets calmer. Their response to economics is no different.
Politics of whatever shade has little influence as the problems are created and are driven by world events and influences way beyond either their perception or their control. I will agree with you however that Cameron does the UK no good by his wobbling over Europe.
IMO He would achieve more if his approach was;
If the people of the UK decide by referendum that the UK should leave the EU ..... then the UK will do just that. However, we have the mandate that the people of the UK did vote for in their last referendum on membership of the EEC and the UK will re-constitute the principals that formed the EEC and invite those members of the EU who are of the same mind to join us. We will re-establish the EEC as a strong trading partnership and return jobs and prosperity to the UK and our European trading partners, without the threat of the straightjacket enforcement by unelected Europhiles of a European Political Union which is relentlessly destroying our freedoms and our national identities.
If this happened of course it would have quite a profound effect on those of us that have retired to Cyprus or live here as an entitlement as citizens of the EU. That could be resolved fairly easily if Cyprus were to become a member of the EEC as opposed to being a member of the Eurozone. :-k

Posted By: scottie

As a novice in matters of high finance perhaps I should not comment on all of this. However as just an ordinary punter who reads and listens to what is going on world wide it does seem to make sense to me the way Obama is hitting the same problems in America. Surely it makes more sense to munufacture more jobs and keep people in work rather than create mass unemployment and therefore make even more people dependant on the state for money which just is not there? As I have said I am open to contradiction on this matter but as an ordinary Joe Bloggs it does make sense to me , I am only too willing to be educated on this matter :)

Posted By: essence

The failure of HMV et al,has been attributed to the "web".I think the main reason for the demise of the stores mentioned is the high rents they have to meet to trade in the high street...who owns these properties?Sad to say but the high street ,as we know it, will be dead as a dodo,in the near future.Cameron was elected to govern[a debate in itself]so its only right that he and his bloodsuckers take the blaim.
Murdochs Sun...News of the World...when do the trials commence?"Ill sort you out with all the broadcasting rights and stuff...if you help me get elected Rupert..."Plenty of the brown stuff for Dave to wallow in...your not a reader are you Geoff???
Fact...UK debt up...borrowing up....its not going to be ok til 5 years have passed....errr 2018 ...I wont bother to ffwd to 2018,I suspect the remark would be something along the lines of...err 5 years FROM 2018...
As mentioned cant see this shower in power for a long long time.Check out the odds online...the bookies are never wrong ...are they?

Posted By: pantheman

  • LynSab wrote:
    • essence wrote:
      Its taken time for Cameron and his chum Osbourne to screw up the UK economy...but they are hitting their stride now,big time !!!Jessops,HMV,and Blockbuster, this weeks hat-trick failure...with plenty more predicted to fail in the weeks ahead.Camerons next masterstroke appears to be "fogging the UK--EU relationship",ensuring Europeans thinking twice before investing in the UK.Also this week 800 plus jobs to go in the latest round of cuts in Manchester town hall...police officers wages slashed by £4000 per annum...never mind,state pensions set to rise...just have to work longer and pay more...if your on "pay as you learn"...doesnt apply to the self employed...your lucky to have a job I hear the shout.Deficit increased,borrowing more,no "plan B"...safe to say were screwed...only good thing is that the most stupidest "Sun reader"wont vote tory or liberal again ...surely?

    It's a changing world, or havent you noticed, do you think Cyprus will not be changing very drastically in the future? I think Cyprus is about to see many more changes than the UK sadly.

What does the OP have to do with Cyprus Lyn?
No comparisons were made and no mention of Cyprus, it's not like you to try and turn this into something it is not.
yes the world is changing and Cyprus would not be immune to it, but your post, IMHO, sought to put the downers on us un-neccassarily.





Posted By: LynSab

  • pantheman wrote:
    • LynSab wrote:
      • essence wrote:
        Its taken time for Cameron and his chum Osbourne to screw up the UK economy...but they are hitting their stride now,big time !!!Jessops,HMV,and Blockbuster, this weeks hat-trick failure...with plenty more predicted to fail in the weeks ahead.Camerons next masterstroke appears to be "fogging the UK--EU relationship",ensuring Europeans thinking twice before investing in the UK.Also this week 800 plus jobs to go in the latest round of cuts in Manchester town hall...police officers wages slashed by £4000 per annum...never mind,state pensions set to rise...just have to work longer and pay more...if your on "pay as you learn"...doesnt apply to the self employed...your lucky to have a job I hear the shout.Deficit increased,borrowing more,no "plan B"...safe to say were screwed...only good thing is that the most stupidest "Sun reader"wont vote tory or liberal again ...surely?

      It's a changing world, or havent you noticed, do you think Cyprus will not be changing very drastically in the future? I think Cyprus is about to see many more changes than the UK sadly.

    What does the OP have to do with Cyprus Lyn?
    No comparisons were made and no mention of Cyprus, it's not like you to try and turn this into something it is not.
    yes the world is changing and Cyprus would not be immune to it, but your post, IMHO, sought to put the downers on us un-neccassarily.

Really Pan, I'm a realist and it's obvious the OP has in other threads compared the UK as less than fit to live in. If the UK has a crap govt and a bad ecomny and a not so bright future, knowing Cyprus as I do and having a very deep interest in its future economy as I NEED to have, then I'm qualified enough I think to comment on what I believe is a bad economic future :shock: :shock:
If high street shops are closing in the UK, and only six months ago I was still in Cyprus it's okay for me to make the comparison that high streets in cyprus are also suffering the same.
If Cameron has blame to take, I wouldn't defend him, but leaders in both countries have much to answer for and as others love to take a poke at the UK and often rightly so, it's not as if Cyprus is in a better situation economically is it.
So you make your opinions and I'll make mine okay?
I'm surprised that you're surprised.

Posted By: geof j

Essence, the brown stuff hit the fan before this government came to power,(who did they take over from??) unfortunately some mess takes longer to clean up than others :cry:

Posted By: pantheman

  • LynSab wrote:
    • pantheman wrote:
      • LynSab wrote:
        • essence wrote:
          Its taken time for Cameron and his chum Osbourne to screw up the UK economy...but they are hitting their stride now,big time !!!Jessops,HMV,and Blockbuster, this weeks hat-trick failure...with plenty more predicted to fail in the weeks ahead.Camerons next masterstroke appears to be "fogging the UK--EU relationship",ensuring Europeans thinking twice before investing in the UK.Also this week 800 plus jobs to go in the latest round of cuts in Manchester town hall...police officers wages slashed by £4000 per annum...never mind,state pensions set to rise...just have to work longer and pay more...if your on "pay as you learn"...doesnt apply to the self employed...your lucky to have a job I hear the shout.Deficit increased,borrowing more,no "plan B"...safe to say were screwed...only good thing is that the most stupidest "Sun reader"wont vote tory or liberal again ...surely?

        It's a changing world, or havent you noticed, do you think Cyprus will not be changing very drastically in the future? I think Cyprus is about to see many more changes than the UK sadly.

      What does the OP have to do with Cyprus Lyn?
      No comparisons were made and no mention of Cyprus, it's not like you to try and turn this into something it is not.
      yes the world is changing and Cyprus would not be immune to it, but your post, IMHO, sought to put the downers on us un-neccassarily.

    Really Pan, I'm a realist and it's obvious the OP has in other threads compared the UK as less than fit to live in. If the UK has a c**p govt and a bad ecomny and a not so bright future, knowing Cyprus as I do and having a very deep interest in its future economy as I NEED to have, then I'm qualified enough I think to comment on what I believe is a bad economic future :shock: :shock:
    If high street shops are closing in the UK, and only six months ago I was still in Cyprus it's okay for me to make the comparison that high streets in cyprus are also suffering the same.
    If Cameron has blame to take, I wouldn't defend him, but leaders in both countries have much to answer for and as others love to take a poke at the UK and often rightly so, it's not as if Cyprus is in a better situation economically is it.
    So you make your opinions and I'll make mine okay?
    I'm surprised that you're surprised.

As I said, there was no mention of Cyprus. If you have beef with Essence that's up to you, but had he/she posted on a non Cyprus forum, would you then still have slated us as you did?
I'm surprised, you are surprised that I was surprised! :)

Posted By: geoffreys

  • pantheman wrote:
    • LynSab wrote:
      • pantheman wrote:
        • LynSab wrote:
          • essence wrote:
            Its taken time for Cameron and his chum Osbourne to screw up the UK economy...but they are hitting their stride now,big time !!!Jessops,HMV,and Blockbuster, this weeks hat-trick failure...with plenty more predicted to fail in the weeks ahead.Camerons next masterstroke appears to be "fogging the UK--EU relationship",ensuring Europeans thinking twice before investing in the UK.Also this week 800 plus jobs to go in the latest round of cuts in Manchester town hall...police officers wages slashed by £4000 per annum...never mind,state pensions set to rise...just have to work longer and pay more...if your on "pay as you learn"...doesnt apply to the self employed...your lucky to have a job I hear the shout.Deficit increased,borrowing more,no "plan B"...safe to say were screwed...only good thing is that the most stupidest "Sun reader"wont vote tory or liberal again ...surely?

          It's a changing world, or havent you noticed, do you think Cyprus will not be changing very drastically in the future? I think Cyprus is about to see many more changes than the UK sadly.

        What does the OP have to do with Cyprus Lyn?
        No comparisons were made and no mention of Cyprus, it's not like you to try and turn this into something it is not.
        yes the world is changing and Cyprus would not be immune to it, but your post, IMHO, sought to put the downers on us un-neccassarily.

      Really Pan, I'm a realist and it's obvious the OP has in other threads compared the UK as less than fit to live in. If the UK has a c**p govt and a bad ecomny and a not so bright future, knowing Cyprus as I do and having a very deep interest in its future economy as I NEED to have, then I'm qualified enough I think to comment on what I believe is a bad economic future :shock: :shock:
      If high street shops are closing in the UK, and only six months ago I was still in Cyprus it's okay for me to make the comparison that high streets in cyprus are also suffering the same.
      If Cameron has blame to take, I wouldn't defend him, but leaders in both countries have much to answer for and as others love to take a poke at the UK and often rightly so, it's not as if Cyprus is in a better situation economically is it.
      So you make your opinions and I'll make mine okay?
      I'm surprised that you're surprised.

    As I said, there was no mention of Cyprus. If you have beef with Essence that's up to you, but had he/she posted on a non Cyprus forum, would you then still have slated us as you did?
    I'm surprised, you are surprised that I was surprised! :)

Well Mr Essence had a right go at Expats here - see the Winter Fuel thread.
I assumed he had taken my advice which was: "if you want to discuss UK Politics please start a new thread".
No surprise.
Geoff

Posted By: LynSab

Pan what are you on about, I didn't slate Cyprus, I pointed out a that Cyprus is and will suffer economically because of the govt and many other factors so trashing the UK for its failing economy is a bit daft, when both countries are in some muddle. We citizens are the ones who bare the brunt, but to listen to a few posters on here it's only the UK that is suffering when that so obviously isn't the case. You of all people know that financially I am tied into Cyprus in a big way, so am affected by its future and if you allow me, am bloody angry about it. So don't twist my meaning anymore than you already have tried. In fact just give yourself a rest.....

Posted By: pantheman

  • LynSab wrote:
    Pan what are you on about, I didn't slate Cyprus, I pointed out a that Cyprus is and will suffer economically because of the govt and many other factors so trashing the UK for its failing economy is a bit daft, when both countries are in some muddle. We citizens are the ones who bare the brunt, but to listen to a few posters on here it's only the UK that is suffering when that so obviously isn't the case.
    You of all people know that financially I am tied into Cyprus in a big way, so am affected by its future and if you allow me, am bloody angry about it.
    So don't twist my meaning anymore than you already have tried.
    In fact just give yourself a rest.....

Ok, Ok, calm down, no harm done I understand. We still mates????

Posted By: Tangutica

  • pantheman wrote:
    • LynSab wrote:
      • essence wrote:
        Its taken time for Cameron and his chum Osbourne to screw up the UK economy...but they are hitting their stride now,big time !!!Jessops,HMV,and Blockbuster, this weeks hat-trick failure...with plenty more predicted to fail in the weeks ahead.Camerons next masterstroke appears to be "fogging the UK--EU relationship",ensuring Europeans thinking twice before investing in the UK.Also this week 800 plus jobs to go in the latest round of cuts in Manchester town hall...police officers wages slashed by £4000 per annum...never mind,state pensions set to rise...just have to work longer and pay more...if your on "pay as you learn"...doesnt apply to the self employed...your lucky to have a job I hear the shout.Deficit increased,borrowing more,no "plan B"...safe to say were screwed...only good thing is that the most stupidest "Sun reader"wont vote tory or liberal again ...surely?

      It's a changing world, or havent you noticed, do you think Cyprus will not be changing very drastically in the future? I think Cyprus is about to see many more changes than the UK sadly.

    What does the OP have to do with Cyprus Lyn?
    No comparisons were made and no mention of Cyprus, it's not like you to try and turn this into something it is not.
    yes the world is changing and Cyprus would not be immune to it, but your post, IMHO, sought to put the downers on us un-neccassarily.

I'd say more to the point Padn - what does the UK and the state of the UK have to do with a Cyprus Eastern Owners forum!



Posted By: pantheman

  • Tangutica wrote:
    • pantheman wrote:
      • LynSab wrote:
        • essence wrote:
          Its taken time for Cameron and his chum Osbourne to screw up the UK economy...but they are hitting their stride now,big time !!!Jessops,HMV,and Blockbuster, this weeks hat-trick failure...with plenty more predicted to fail in the weeks ahead.Camerons next masterstroke appears to be "fogging the UK--EU relationship",ensuring Europeans thinking twice before investing in the UK.Also this week 800 plus jobs to go in the latest round of cuts in Manchester town hall...police officers wages slashed by £4000 per annum...never mind,state pensions set to rise...just have to work longer and pay more...if your on "pay as you learn"...doesnt apply to the self employed...your lucky to have a job I hear the shout.Deficit increased,borrowing more,no "plan B"...safe to say were screwed...only good thing is that the most stupidest "Sun reader"wont vote tory or liberal again ...surely?

        It's a changing world, or havent you noticed, do you think Cyprus will not be changing very drastically in the future? I think Cyprus is about to see many more changes than the UK sadly.

      What does the OP have to do with Cyprus Lyn?
      No comparisons were made and no mention of Cyprus, it's not like you to try and turn this into something it is not.
      yes the world is changing and Cyprus would not be immune to it, but your post, IMHO, sought to put the downers on us un-neccassarily.

    I'd say more to the point Padn - what does the UK and the state of the UK have to do with a Cyprus Eastern Owners forum!

Well it could be argued that most expats in cyprus have a bigger vested interest in the UK, so it would concern them more to know whats going on, surely.
But anyhow, i'm not looking for a row!

Posted By: Woodrow Why?at

  • scottie wrote:
    As a novice in matters of high finance perhaps I should not comment on all of this. However as just an ordinary punter who reads and listens to what is going on world wide it does seem to make sense to me the way Obama is hitting the same problems in America. Surely it makes more sense to munufacture more jobs and keep people in work rather than create mass unemployment and therefore make even more people dependant on the state for money which just is not there? As I have said I am open to contradiction on this matter but as an ordinary Joe Bloggs it does make sense to me , I am only too willing to be educated on this matter :)

Of course it does, scottie!
Problem is that mass unemployment is, and always has been, a major part of Tory policy!!

Posted By: LynSab

  • pantheman wrote:
    • LynSab wrote:
      Pan what are you on about, I didn't slate Cyprus, I pointed out a that Cyprus is and will suffer economically because of the govt and many other factors so trashing the UK for its failing economy is a bit daft, when both countries are in some muddle. We citizens are the ones who bare the brunt, but to listen to a few posters on here it's only the UK that is suffering when that so obviously isn't the case.
      You of all people know that financially I am tied into Cyprus in a big way, so am affected by its future and if you allow me, am bloody angry about it.
      So don't twist my meaning anymore than you already have tried.
      In fact just give yourself a rest.....

    Ok, Ok, calm down, no harm done I understand. We still mates????

Of course :D

Posted By: scottie

  • Woodrow Why?at wrote:
    • scottie wrote:
      As a novice in matters of high finance perhaps I should not comment on all of this. However as just an ordinary punter who reads and listens to what is going on world wide it does seem to make sense to me the way Obama is hitting the same problems in America. Surely it makes more sense to munufacture more jobs and keep people in work rather than create mass unemployment and therefore make even more people dependant on the state for money which just is not there? As I have said I am open to contradiction on this matter but as an ordinary Joe Bloggs it does make sense to me , I am only too willing to be educated on this matter :)

    Of course it does, scottie!
    Problem is that mass unemployment is, and always has been, a major part of Tory policy!!

Someone should have listened to Mr Micawber :lol: :lol:

Posted By: ProVox

Quote
    Quote:
  • Problem is that mass unemployment is, and always has been, a major part of Tory policy!!

Mass unemployment is caused by the international financial system. National political influence is minimal and generally only affects that country. It is World events that are dictating what is happening. The elected political numpties have no effect as they are all self interest and hot air and the decisions are made at a rank far above their level of competence or influence.
You only have to answer a simple question:
It is proven that there are big problems, criminality and abuses in the Banking sector that have been clearly identified and are the root cause of the Worlds economic problems but, what has actually changed in the last few years to change that failed system?
The answer is absolutely NOTHING and the reason is that the remedy to the problem would change banking beyond recognition, virtually destroy it and a lot of very wealthy and truly influential people would suffer. Conspiracy theories apart, none of these events can be attributed to accident or considered as a series of unrelated events. Somewhere, somehow all these events are related and are being coordinated.
The end result? :-k :?

Posted By: essence

Does any debate have to be concerning Cyprus,or anything connected with the island with regard to posting on this forum?....didnt think so. Causative effect of financial "irregularities",mass unemployment...well one of them,maybe.Consider Thatchers economics of the early 80s;close the mines,import coal which was more expensive than UK;that action does not make sense...unless your planning to put whole communities in unemployment.I conclude that if you have 10 persons chasing 9 jobs its happy days for the "elite"ie unemployment is created to keep costs down,profit margins up.Byker...you should never assume...Who said I supported "New Labour"???I probably despise them as much as you do.Polititians are part of the ruling elite,whatever they say in public,they all p*** in the same pot in private.The Millibands socialists?lesser of two evils thats all...Election pledge....reduce deficit...whoops...decrease borrowing...whoops...what have they actually achieved?I forgot ...put a million on the dole...

Posted By: ProVox

Scottie you said:
    Quote:
  • As a novice in matters of high finance perhaps I should not comment on all of this.

You don’t need to understand high finance all it needs is a modicum of common sense and the interest to find out what makes the system tick.
You cannot blame politicians for the causes, this is beyond their comprehension and they have no power to change things anyway!
The view being taken here is far too narrow, you need to look much deeper and locate the cause. The biggest problem is the financial system that is in place and has been covertly destroying the structure of our society from within for decades but you will not see it unless you dig deep and have the mind set to assemble the bits and pieces. Once you take the trouble to look, it becomes all too obvious. There are other causes obviously but banking is the major cause.
What leads all the financial problems that cause mass unemployment and thus the knock-on effect of business collapse originates from one simple fact. The Banks have found out that it is possible to make money without having to use people or have manufacturing industry to do it. Note that making money does not equate to creating wealth, it simply makes the rich richer and the poor poorer through job losses and inflation, which in itself is a hidden tax.
How do they do it? They create so called ‘ products’ within the banking system which allows them to create endless amounts of money that produces nothing and does not create jobs to distribute any created wealth. The ‘ wealth ’ stays inside the banks going round and round as numbers in computers.
The following should show anyone interested the scale of the problem in pictures:
http://demonocracy.info/infographics/usa/derivatives/bank_exposure.html
This ‘ Derivatives Market ’ is just the Banker’s equivalent of a Book Makers! It is pure simple, unadulterated gambling but it is what pays the bankers their salaries and eye watering bonuses. They have produced nothing tangible only chaos and instability and then reward themselves for doing so, leaving a Worldwide total liability that is 20 times the Worlds GDP. I do not profess to know very much about derivatives but what is more frightening is that the bankers and ‘ experts ’ don’t either! The system is out of control and nobody seems to know how to stop it ....... or they don’t want to! :-k
What happened to all this money created by ‘ Quantitive Easing’ ? Did you see any of it, because I didn’t and I don’t know anybody that has? So where is it? It all went to the Banks as bail-outs and what did they do with it, lend it to industry to create jobs? No, it mainly went into the cess pool of Banking ‘ products ’ such as derivatives that are of benefit only to the Banks and what did we (The People) get out of it .......... inflation!
The whole financial system is corrupt, not fit for purpose, needs dismantling and restructuring. But who is capable of doing it and how would they do it? If Governments have little or no control over the Banking system ............ who does? 8-[ :?



Posted By: scottie

  • ProVox wrote:
    Scottie you said:
      Quote:
    • As a novice in matters of high finance perhaps I should not comment on all of this.

    You don’t need to understand high finance all it needs is a modicum of common sense and the interest to find out what makes the system tick.
    You cannot blame politicians for the causes, this is beyond their comprehension and they have no power to change things anyway!
    The view being taken here is far too narrow, you need to look much deeper and locate the cause. The biggest problem is the financial system that is in place and has been covertly destroying the structure of our society from within for decades but you will not see it unless you dig deep and have the mind set to assemble the bits and pieces. Once you take the trouble to look, it becomes all too obvious. There are other causes obviously but banking is the major cause.
    What leads all the financial problems that cause mass unemployment and thus the knock-on effect of business collapse originates from one simple fact. The Banks have found out that it is possible to make money without having to use people or have manufacturing industry to do it. Note that making money does not equate to creating wealth, it simply makes the rich richer and the poor poorer through job losses and inflation, which in itself is a hidden tax.
    How do they do it? They create so called ‘ products’ within the banking system which allows them to create endless amounts of money that produces nothing and does not create jobs to distribute any created wealth. The ‘ wealth ’ stays inside the banks going round and round as numbers in computers.
    The following should show anyone interested the scale of the problem in pictures:
    http://demonocracy.info/infographics/usa/derivatives/bank_exposure.html
    This ‘ Derivatives Market ’ is just the Banker’s equivalent of a Book Makers! It is pure simple, unadulterated gambling but it is what pays the bankers their salaries and eye watering bonuses. They have produced nothing tangible only chaos and instability and then reward themselves for doing so, leaving a Worldwide total liability that is 20 times the Worlds GDP. I do not profess to know very much about derivatives but what is more frightening is that the bankers and ‘ experts ’ don’t either! The system is out of control and nobody seems to know how to stop it ....... or they don’t want to! :-k
    What happened to all this money created by ‘ Quantitive Easing’ ? Did you see any of it, because I didn’t and I don’t know anybody that has? So where is it? It all went to the Banks as bail-outs and what did they do with it, lend it to industry to create jobs? No, it mainly went into the cess pool of Banking ‘ products ’ such as derivatives that are of benefit only to the Banks and what did we (The People) get out of it .......... inflation!
    The whole financial system is corrupt, not fit for purpose, needs dismantling and restructuring. But who is capable of doing it and how would they do it? If Governments have little or no control over the Banking system ............ who does? 8-[ :?

Again please correct me if I am wrong but is this not the angle from which Obama appears to see it and is tackling it accordingly. Which appears to be from the opposite end to us ? :)

Posted By: ProVox

Scottie:
    Quote:
  • Again please correct me if I am wrong but is this not the angle from which Obama appears to see it and is tackling it accordingly. Which appears to be from the opposite end to us ?

I can only say to you what I have gleened from the history books over some years and in this case I think the operative word is ‘appears’? I have most often found that nothing is as straight forward as it at first appears. :-k
Obama has no power against the system, he is part of it as he owes his position to the backing and support of a powerful lobby who do not tolerate people making waves. Maybe he is not directly involved but he has to go with the flow.
Previous Presidents that have tried to reform the system have often paid with their lives. Kennedy signed Executive Order 11110 on the 4th June 1963, which effectively took the power away from the Federal Reserve ( A private Bank ) to produce and control the US money supply. This is the first step in stripping the Banks of their power. Kennedy was assassinated on the 22nd Nov 1963!
President Andrew Jackson vetoed the renewal of the charter of the Bank of United States, the forerunner to the Federal Reserve. He had previously called top bankers to his office in the White House and told them: " You are a den of vipers and thieves! I intend to rout you out, and by the grace of the Eternal God, will rout you out !" On the 31st Jan 1835 an attempt to assassinate Jackson by Richard Lawrence failed when both pistols failed to fire. Jackson always stated that he knew that it was the bankers, primarily the Rothschilds, that were behind the attempt.
Jackson also said in his veto message to Congress: " If the American people only understood the rank injustice of our money and banking system - there would be a revolution before morning...". A good bit of truth in that but people are not interested in understanding, they prefer to rely upon the politicians and governments to sort it out.
There have been other Presidents, all of whom fell foul of the banking system or made some attempt to reign in the powers of the banking cartels and were either assassinated or survived attempts on their lives. Among them Presidents Zachary, Buchannan, Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley, Ford and Reagan. All had issues with the banking system and the Federal Reserve. There are many lesser mortals who have met similar ends whilst in high positions who voiced their opposition to the banking system. This is not to say that the bankers DID kill or attempt to kill them but the old saying that; ‘ Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely ’ seems to fit.
This why I say that the collapse in the Worlds economic system is beyond the control of politicians no matter how high they go in office.

Posted By: scottie

Thank you for that . However he does appear to be trying to tackle it from the right direction. All I know is not as it seems ........pity :(

Posted By: Kwacka

  • ProVox wrote:
    Previous Presidents that have tried to reform the system have often paid with their lives. Kennedy signed Executive Order 11110 on the 4th June 1963, which effectively took the power away from the Federal Reserve ( A private Bank ) to produce and control the US money supply.

You have made this statement before and I informed you (and pointed you towards evidence) that the US Federal Reserve IS NOT A PRIVATE BANK although this is a claim made by the US Rabid Right and various conspiracy theorisists.
Nor does Executive Order 11110 (another favourite of the loonies) do what people have told you it does, it's about silver certificates and the amount of silver released in coins).
Please stop repeating this rubbish.
    Quote:
  • PUBLIC OR PRIVATE?
    The public/private nature of the institution has given rise to the claim that the Fed is a "private corporation." This claim is not correct. Part of the system consists of private corporations. Part is a federal agency.
    The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System is a government agency. Its employees are employees of the federal government, paid in accordance with federal government pay scales, and part of the federal employee retirement system. The premises are federal government property. The seven Board members are appointed by the President with advice and consent of the Senate in the same fashion as other government appointees.

Money and the Federal Reserve System: Myth and Reality

Posted By: scottie

Now I am confused again. No wonder the world economy is in a mess. Does the right hand know what the left is doing :?:

Posted By: ProVox

Kwacka, you said:
    Quote:
  • You have made this statement before and I informed you (and pointed you towards evidence) that the US Federal Reserve IS NOT A PRIVATE BANK although this is a claim made by the US Rabid Right and various conspiracy theorists

You have ‘informed’ me before, but you are wrong as I believe I pointed out on a previous occasion. You read the words OK but you seem unable to identify the implications!
This is a random choice but is a fair presentation ..... one of hundreds if not thousands that say more or less the same thing. It is five years old but still valid as nothing has changed in the meantime:
http://www.globalresearch.ca/who-owns-the-federal-reserve/10489
The original post by ‘ Essence ’ suggested that politicians/political parties were the cause of the economic down turn and the cause of mass unemployment. I suggested that he/she was giving far too much credit to the politicians and that the decisions were way beyond their jurisdiction.
Note in the link above the following statement:
    Quote:
  • “The Federal Reserve is considered an independent central bank because its decisions do not have to be ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or legislative branch of government , it does not receive funding appropriated by Congress, and the terms of the members of the Board of Governors span multiple presidential and congressional terms.”

In other words ……….... those that are making the financial decisions that affect us all are BEYOND THE COMMAND OF EVEN THE SUPPOSEDLY MOST POWERFUL MAN ON EARTH, THE PRESIDENT OF THE USA!
Also note how the Board is selected by The President who needs his appointment’s ratified by The Senate and also check out the backgrounds of the majority of those appointed. They are nearly all Bankers working for or have worked for private banking and financial institutions, who in turn are major financiers for the Senator’s election campaigns.

In short; The Federal Reserve claims it is not a private bank but a Private/Federal Corporation, a nice play on words? The Fed’s shares are not available on the stock market but The Federal Reserve is like other Central Banks, owned by its shareholders and they are other PRIVATE bank’s some of them foreign, who are the only entity able to purchase shares in the Fed, even the US Government does not have shares.
Work it out! If the Fed’s shares can ONLY be acquired by Banks, those banks in turn are owned by private shareholders and the Government of the USA does not even have shares, how can it be anything other than a Private Bank? This CARTEL of Banks is actually illegal in both the US and Europe so, why has no body ever been charged with an offence, even when they manipulated LIBOR for their personal financial gain? Maybe it is because ‘ They ’ are beyond The Law? :-k
Kwacka, you obviously unquestioningly believe what you read although many would disagree with you. It is all smoke and mirrors, read your own link!

You also have previously claimed that it is not the banks that create and supply money out of thin air! Again your opinion seems to fly in the face of fact and certainly the majority of informed opinion. The Fed buys US Government Bonds and then creates the same amount in currency, on a computer and credits that amount to The Treasury. The Fed then charges interest to the US Government. How would you explain away the derivatives markets with a value ( liability ) exceeding the worlds GDP by a factor of 20 times, if it was not the banks that were creating the ‘ money ’ in the first place?

You missed the point of Silver Certificates completely! :roll:
Ex Ord. 11110 gave the US treasury the right to issue SILVER CERTIFICATES, think about it ...... does ‘ I promise to pay the bearer on demand the sum of XX Pounds ’ ring a bell? Very similar in a way to the silver certificate but called pound notes, when they were backed by gold. The Government did not have the authority to issue currency notes which is what the Silver Certificate was, hence the requirement for E.O 11110 which was to allow the Government to issue its own notes.
Issuing currency notes was, and still is, the prerogative of the Federal Reserve and was the thin end of the wedge that would have put the creation and control of the Nations money back in the hands of the people through the elected Government. It meant the Silver Certificates could be issued free of debt as it was backed by silver and thus free of interest which was a direct threat to the Federal Reserve system and they could have eventually replaced the Federal Reserve Notes. [-X
Again a random choice but it describes the implications of E.O.11110 as what they were, ‘ enormous ’!........ and it makes interesting reading:
http://rense.com/general44/exec.htm
Kwacka, instead of just repeating what in your personal opinion you believe is the truth and regarding anything contrary as rubbish and no more than a conspiracy theory, try putting the pieces together yourself, identifying the ramifications and making a rational observation based on other sources of evidence.
    Quote:
  • Please stop repeating this rubbish.

Scottie you said:
    Quote:
  • Does the right hand know what the left is doing?

Yes ...... but they sure as Hell are not going to tell us, it would spoil everything!!! :wink:

Posted By: essence

LIBOR=london inter bank offered rate............................EUROBOR=Nigel Farange.......................COLOSSALBOR=ProVox..............LIBORIS=London international bank rate....NEW LIBOR=Party full of liars and bores....TREBOR=a mint.....TWELVEBOR= used to make withdrawal from bank



Posted By: scottie

  • essence wrote:
    LIBOR=london inter bank offered rate............................EUROBOR=Nigel Farange.......................COLOSSALBOR=ProVox..............LIBORIS=London international bank rate....NEW LIBOR=Party full of liars and bores....TREBOR=a mint.....TWELVEBOR= used to make withdrawal from bank

Don't know whether to laugh or cry :lol: :cry:

Posted By: Byker

  • essence wrote:
    LIBOR=london inter bank offered rate............................EUROBOR=Nigel Farange.......................COLOSSALBOR=ProVox..............LIBORIS=London international bank rate....NEW LIBOR=Party full of liars and bores....TREBOR=a mint.....TWELVEBOR= used to make withdrawal from bank
:clap: :clap: :clap:

Posted By: Kwacka

In your (overlong) post you managed to squeeze in 3 or 4 myths. The easiest one to check is the membership of the Federal Reserve being comprised of bankers. Chairman: Ben S. Bernanke - academic Vice: Janet L. Yellen - academic, plus member of the Twelfth District Federal Reserve Bank Daniel K. Tarullo: academic, National Economic Council and the National Security Council. Sarah Bloom Raskin: Commissioner of Financial Regulation for the State of Maryland Jeremy C. Stein - academic Jerome H. Powell - academic (partner in Carlyle group until 2005) EO 11110 was an amendement to the 1951 EO 10289 which listed things the Treasury Secretary could do without asking the President, EO 11110 added silver to the list. Ref shareholders/stakeholders - you seem to be confusing the Federal Reseve Bank and State federal banks. No, the Fed isn't funded by the Treasury, it gives money to the Treasury, $28 billion a couple of years ago. (Stakeholders received $631 million).

Posted By: ProVox

    Quote:
  • In your (overlong) post you managed to squeeze in 3 or 4 myths.

You obviously consider a couple of emoticons and a one liner attached to a cut-n-paste of a previous post constitutes a debate? Maybe we should ask Steve to set some sort of limit on the length of debate posts, as you obviously find reading more than a couple of sentences beyond your attention span?
I am afraid it would take more than a couple of sentences to explain anything to you. So I won’t bother.

Posted By: essence

A couple of sentences ProVox???Why say in 1 word,when 10 does nicely???Takes me back to my Uni days.........Current economic crisis may be due to banks reckless lending to customers ,who were unable to meet said debts.Now the banks wont lend period...so theres an element of truth to the statement its "all down to the bankers".The need for regulation is obvious,but Daves fumbled the ball!Reducing the national debt is admirable,but the debt is rising,along with the unemployment figures.Reducing benefits[1%rise]in real terms will result in more misery for the unemployed,though I suspect New Labour would be no different in power.Perhaps all this explains the electorates apathy...lions led by donkeys!!!
ps...check out this weeks "Panorama" BBC1....gangs smuggling illegal immigrants OUT of the UK...didnt know whether to laugh or cry!!!

Posted By: Kwacka

  • ProVox wrote:
      Quote:
    • In your (overlong) post you managed to squeeze in 3 or 4 myths.

    You obviously consider a couple of emoticons and a one liner attached to a cut-n-paste of a previous post constitutes a debate? Maybe we should ask Steve to set some sort of limit on the length of debate posts, as you obviously find reading more than a couple of sentences beyond your attention span?.

What emoticons?
What one-liner?
BTW, have you ever considered reading up on the subject of critical thinking?

Posted By: ProVox

Kwacka:
    Quote:
  • What emoticons? What one-liner?

This thread, I would say these ........#11, #12, #15, #16, #23 , could be considered as cut-n-paste, some with emoticons, and the post of a couple of one liners. This is how some people post and you as a supposed ‘moderator’ make no comment.......... but if someone spends the time to formulate an argument which by necessity is of some length, as is the object of DEBATE , you are quick to add your sarcastic opinion!
    Quote:
  • BTW, have you ever considered reading up on the subject of critical thinking?

Maybe before you advise me once again, you should consider reading up on Lateral Thinking?
Off the thread but, you obviously consider yourself qualified on the subject of critical thinking? I am a mere mortal! I spent the last 30+ years of my working life doing little else and an awful lot of lateral thinking as well and have never had a complaint or walked away from a smouldering heap of very expensive chemical plant expressing my apologies to the Client because I got it a bit wrong! It’s called hands on experience and the practical application of critical/lateral thinking. It cannot just be learned from books and is otherwise known as ............ ‘ What if ?’ or ‘ WTF was that ?’....... if you happen to get it wrong and the worse happens.
Critical thinking? The ‘expert’ tells me it’s a chicken ............... my lateral thinking says ...... it looks like a duck ... it walks like a duck .... and it quacks like a duck? :? My decision goes for it being a duck and the label is wrong. :-k
The FED is the same.
The ‘experts’ tells me it is ‘ NOT A PRIVATE BANK’ ....... but can’t say who actually owns it ........ the US Government has no shares ...... the fed admits to it being a private/Federal Corporation ...... you or I cannot buy shares in it ....... the only shares are held by many private banks which operate in their own interests ....... these banks are in turn owned by private shareholders ......... and those shareholders can be anybody from The Rothschilds, to our postman. :-k
Because what I see says: It is run on the lines of the Civil Service i.e. top positions are all political appointments........... it makes (creates) vast sums of fiat money but produces nothing ( but debt, austerity and mass unemployment? ) ........ it reports only retrospectively to the US Senate ........ it needs no Presidential or Senate approval for its actions ......... its Board of Directors are immune from prosecution ........ and it operates over and above US and International Law.
My opinion based on that is ...... it is a criminal cartel ....... run by a bunch of greedy self serving crooks ....... and they are milking the system for all it is worth..... knowing that 90%+ of the population don’t have a clue what they are doing and those that have fathomed it out are ridiculed by the uninformed as ‘ Conspiracy Theorists’ . The REAL conspiracy is what the people get fed by those that have something to hide.
Right, your turn ....... Tell me in your own words;

• Who owns the Federal Reserve Bank? :-k
• Who creates the money supply? :-k
• Answer the ‘derivatives’ question I posed earlier.
• Justify your belief that all of this is happening without some form of ‘ management ’ from above ........... and I don’t mean God. :-k
If you wish .... start another thread as we don’t want to bore those that have no interest in the subject .... do we? :roll:





Posted By: Kwacka

As you quoted me, I stupidly inferred that you were refering to me.
Yes, quoting numerous others posts (clicking on 'quote' button instead of 'reply' button is a bugbear of mine too. Being around since pre-www days anybody doing this on a bulletin board running at 300bps would soon be getting the online vesrion of death-threats. As would anybody 'top posting' (thanks for making that the default in OutlookExpress, Microsoft; or anyone signing their messages with their name, rather than their username.
However there is a reluctance to censor comments as little as possible, whilst remaining a family orientated board.
The price of storage has also reduced since those days.
  • PV wrote:
    Critical thinking? The ‘expert’ tells me it’s a chicken ............... my lateral thinking says ...... it looks like a duck ... it walks like a duck .... and it quacks like a duck? Confused My decision goes for it being a duck and the label is wrong. Think

Remember the kids alphabet book, the ones with 'A is for armadillo' with a picture of an armadillo on the next page?
Now imagine that a page is missing, the duck picture page. Anybody picking up that book would look through it and find: 'D is for Duck' opposite a picture of an elephant. Someone unaware of the difference between ducks & elephants would argue that a duck has 4 legs and a tail at each end. Some may even continue to do so when repeatedly informed that the fault lay in the document and evidence showing the error.
In the same way, if someone is able to think in a critical way they may think they know about critical thinking.
1. Who owns the Federal Reserve Bank?
The FED is not owned by anybody. It is independent, but answerable to the US Congress. The State Banks have commercial banks as shareholders, it's US law that they do, and each bank (irresepective of size) has one share. Commercial banks don't own stock in the State or Federal Reserve Banks.
2. Bank notes and coins are produced by the only body in the USA legally allowed to do so. The FED buys notes from the treasury at the cost of production.
3. Can you repeat the question? I don't remember it and your question/point might have been lost amongst the rest of your post.
4. There's plenty of evidence pointing one way, and none of note pointing the other. For example there are those that believe that commercial banks have shares in the US Federal Reserve Bank, and those that argue an assassination of a President was caused by signing an executive order allowing the Treasury Secretary to carry out one more duty independent of the President.

Posted By: romatarot

Hi Provox, I have just read your comment that nobody wants or knows how to change the current banking system Roger Hayes of the British Constitution Group does and will, they are planning to start up a new 'banking system' where power is no longer at the top or beyond the pay scale of the politicians. A la Noam Chomsky, who advocates people no longer expecting others to 'lead' them, Roger Hayes has been a very important player in Lawful Rebellion and this thread is about money, the link below is very informative and I hope it will re-instate the Magna Carta, where individuals are personally entitled, not 'The Corporation of United Kingdom'. http://www.thebcgroup.org.uk/

Posted By: ProVox

At a tangent from the OP but ...........
KWACKA:
    Quote:
  • Remember the kids alphabet book, the ones with 'A is for armadillo' with a picture of an armadillo on the next page?
    Now imagine that a page is missing, ........ etc etc etc ........ Some may even continue to do so (believe) when repeatedly informed that the fault lay in the document and evidence showing the error.
To me that is just how you tend to look at things! Having a questioning mind and would notice the page was missing because a page number would also be missing or the remains of the missing page were still there. Hmmmmmm, now I am not sure that what I am told is a duck is correct. Something odd here! Solution, find more articles that talk about ducks! Bingo! Now I have more than one source for the description of a duck. My leaning would be to go for what the majority describes as a duck, even though the details (i.e. breed) could differ.
    Quote:
  • The FED is not owned by anybody?
This is from the Fed. Website:
http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/about_14986.htm
This comes over to me as the equivalent of ‘ Which is correct .... the yolk of an egg is white .... or .... the yolk of an egg are white. ’ This ‘ answer ’ is designed to obscure and the gullible will not realise that the yolk of an egg is yellow, because the colour of the egg was not the question. After all, is that not how banks work anyway, smoke and mirrors? Only by questioning what we are told will we ever learn the truth.
( You actually use exactly the same technique as the Fed ........... example )
    Quote:
  • Bank notes and coins are produced by the only body in the USA legally allowed to do so. The FED buys notes from the treasury at the cost of production.

That is an answer to a question but not the question I asked .......... and you know it!
I said WHO CREATED THE MONEY SUPPLY, not who printed it or stamped the coin. You are correct, The Fed buys the notes at cost, I believe at around 4 cents on each note irrespective of its face value. They sell a $100 note to you or the Government, for a $100 so the profit is around 2500% which they share with the government by paying them a few million/billion each year. Today the banks payments into their reserves is achieved with a few key strokes on a PC and is backed by ......... nothing .......just fresh air! Less than 3% of the ‘money’ these days is note or coin, over 97% is electronic ...... over which National Governments, because of fractional reserve banking, have little or no control.
Only an imbecile or an extremely powerful and influential body could think of anything that incredibly stupid or incredibly deceitful.
3) It was explain how derivative values are 20 times the World GDP unless it is banks that create money.
Another rather oblique answer......................
    Quote:
  • 4. There's plenty of evidence pointing one way, and none of note pointing the other.........

I assume this is a reference to terms such as New World Order, Illuminati, The Elite etc. which are treated with derision by those who oppose the idea that there is a new order taking place in the world. The comment ‘ evidence of note ’ is simply according to what YOU deem to be of significance.
Unless you have been isolated on a remote island for the last 30-40 years it would be impossible to claim that the world has not changed in that time. It has changed in the same way Europe changed after the industrial revolution, or the changes that came about through the advent of union power, or after WWI & WWII. To invoke the sort of changes we are seeing now needs great influence and power............ and great wealth can buy both!
What is happening now is no different but on a global scale because economies are global and dominated by massive industrial/military corporations, Global banking/financial institutions and huge Media Empires in the main owned/controlled by a very small number of extremely wealthy individuals.
To deny that there is no move toward a new order in this world ( i.e. the equivalent of being ‘Under New Management ), is as incredible as those claiming that alien lizards disguised as humans are among us and planning to take over the Planet. Call it what you will but I see it not as a secret and mysterious organisation but a lose association of those that have the motive, the means and the opportunity to make it happen and then they pull together to serve their own interests. For that hypothesis there is abundant evidence. For it to work it needs some form of management as this just cannot happen as a series of unrelated random events. Some organised group is at the helm!
Again, it would be difficult to maintain a stance that this was all just coincidence.

An interesting topic but we are now way off the original post................but this is what happens when The Fed creates fiat money!
The Fed and 100 yrs of inflation

Posted By: ProVox

Roma:
    Quote:
  • I have just read your comment that nobody wants or knows how to change the current banking system.

I really don’t think the majority of people are the slightest bit interested in even finding out how banking and the supply of money actually works. I wasn’t, until it directly affected me and by then it was too late. Bankers give the impression that it is all very complex and beyond the comprehension of ordinary people ( some of it is, to the extent that even the Bankers don't understand it ) but most of it is actually quite simple to understand. Involved and complicated mainly by the banks using buzz words. For instance, you can ‘ borrow ’ money but the banks refer to it as ‘ gearing ’ or ‘ leverage ’ and by using their buzz words the real description is hidden. That is what happened to me, they used words I didn’t understand and thought ...... ‘ Well, they are the experts, they must know far better than me what they are doing! ’. In short ...... they did ...... but made very sure I didn’t. :evil:
These people have been advising at Treasury level for some time. A small group but they have a sort of financial manifesto which addresses most of the major problems with the system.
www.positivemoney.org.uk

Posted By: Kwacka

In response to post #39
Why believe the majority?
If everybody believed the earth is flat, what shape was it?
If I find numerous websites saying that there is an international plan to distribute chemicals over the earth via the exhausts of aircraft and the proof is the different types of trails seen in the sky should I accept that, despite finding 3 or 4 suggesting that the jet engine produces water vapour which freezes at high altitude and its appearance can be affected by winds and the sun's radiation at those heights.
42 Fallacies (pdf)
Occams Razor
___________________________________________________
No, it states that the Fed is not owned by anybody. Its an independent body, created by the US Government, which can be altered by the US Congress.
___________________________________________________
I disagree that the Fed/treasury/Government trousers $99.96 for every $100 note printed/distributed.
___________________________________________________
Or a committee. Or a government
Derivatives? Banks etc. are betting on the price of goods in the future, and saying that they will be a lot more expensive that what they are paying today. In the same way that banks bet on continued growth in Greece, and that property prices will increase forever - and were wrong on both, despite them spending more than they actually had.
Unfortunately their 'investments' increase the prices of those derivatives to the consumer.
Why take these chances? Since they became deregulated they can use other peoples' money (e.g. pension funds) and the interest rates are so low that it makes more to gamble on riskier 'investments'.
___________________________________________________
If everybody believes the earth is flat, what shape is it?
If every host on cable TV/radio shows says that the UN is trying to take over America/the world, does this mean that it is true ? (The 'proof' is I can't find many saying outright that the UN ISN'T trying to take over the world).
Likewise chemtrails, 9/11, Newtown killings, etc. etc. etc.
___________________________________________________
Of course the world has changed. But Interestingly you use the very argument used by creationists when they discount evolution with their watchmaker analogy.
___________________________________________________
Never heard the expression 'confounding variables'? E.g. when there's more ice-cream is sold, more people die by drowning. So to reduce the number of deaths we should make ice-cream illegal.
Superficially this makes sense, but on further examination we realise that more people both eat ice-cream and go swimming on sunny days.
Likewise this 'horror' chart suggests that the Fed created inflation. However the reporter states that such inflation has occurred all over the world. She also states that other events took place at the same time (gold standard dropped for example). There's also no reason why the Fed was developed, this was because of the 1907 depression, nor any other causes given for inflation (e.g. World War I).
BTW, your link doesn't work.

Posted By: Tangutica

Gawd Kwacka - are you in competition with PV now for who can do the longest posts? :wink:
*you are of course cheating with all those blank spaces and all that underlining stretching yours out!

Posted By: Kwacka

  • ProVox wrote:
    Don't knock it Tang at least I am getting a response ..... all I have to do now is work out what Kwacka is actually talking about as he is on a higher intellectual plain than wot I is! :roll: .

I was initially going to apologise for being on a higher intellectual plain, but then I thought "why should I, its not my fault; it would be like me apologising for being only 4' 11" tall". :wink:

Posted By: ProVox

Tangutica said:
    Quote:
  • Gawd Kwacka - are you in competition with PV now for who can do the longest posts?

Don't knock it Tang at least I am getting a response ..... all I have to do now is work out what Kwacka is actually talking about as he is on a higher intellectual plain than wot I is! :roll: .

Posted By: fettler

It would be much better if you were both on intellectual planes. Learned discussions are always a lot more convincing if the participants can spell (and punctuate) correctly. Alex

Posted By: ProVox

Fettler:
    Quote:
  • Learned discussions are always a lot more convincing if the participants can spell (and punctuate) correctly.

In which case the Internet would become an intellectual desert. Maybe like everything else today, the opportunity to sign up to a debating forum should be based solely on academic achievement, maybe a Master's in English Language, rather than life experiences? Should make for an informative experience! :roll:
Kwacka:
    Quote:
  • I was initially going to apologise for being on a higher intellectual plain, but then I thought "why should I, its not my fault; it would be like me apologising for being only 4' 11" tall".

Advantage ProVox – 1.89m ( That is around 6’2” to you ) and tipping 93kg
Kwacka, so that you don’t demean yourself in front of Fettler ............ ‘ its ’ is actually ‘ it is ’ condensed to ' it's ' , shame on you for letting the side down ...... again. :roll: :wink:

Posted By: fettler

  • ProVox wrote:

    Kwacka, so that you don’t demean yourself in front of Fettler ............ ‘ its ’ is actually ‘ it is ’ condensed to ' it's ' , shame on you for letting the side down ...... again. :roll: :wink:

Pots, kettles...
Alex

Posted By: Kwacka

Not only "it's", but I've just noticed this from an earlier post "Never heard the expression 'confounding variables'? E.g. there's as more ice-cream is sold, more people die by drowning. So to reduce the number of deaths we should make ice-cream illegal." Oh the shame, the shame. :oops:

Posted By: Byker

Back to the real world and the OP...
    Quote:
  • Range Rover’s smash-hit Evoque has driven UK car production to its highest level since 2008, and an all-time record export level. In 2012, UK car manufacturing was up 9% compared with 2011, with 1.46m cars produced. Almost 83% were exported.
    The Evoque was 2012’s standout performer, having racked up an astonishing 108,598 sales last year. In August, Land Rover’s Halewood plant (which produces the Evoque and facelifted Freelander 2) switched to round-the-clock production, for the first time in its history . The move created an extra 1000 jobs, and helped drive total Land Rover production up by 28% year-on-year.
    http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/News/Search-Results/Industry-News/Range-Rover-Evoque-drives-British-exports-boom-2013/


Posted By: essence

Back to th real world indeed...thousands protest at the closure of Lewisham A&E...meanwhile Dave announces 21MILLION STERLING in aid for Syrian refugees...over 20 countries world wide receive aid off the UK...What is going on?I thought we had no money...so much for politicians being at the mercy of financial institutions...yes Byker,youve highlighted a success...can you think of any more?While the terrorist threat increase in N Africa, Dave & Nick announce further cuts and redundancies to the armed forces...

Posted By: Steve - SJD

Perhaps if the previous government hadn't left such a massive black hole in the defense accounts then some of the cuts would not be necessary. Cheers Steve

Posted By: essence

Yes...its all the previous govenments fault....meanwhile Dave commits 350 servicemen to Mali,only last week he said he was not going to commit troops,does this qualify the guy a a liar ?Other news,Dave commits 100,000 pounds to the regeneration of Nelson Lancshire high st...15 otHer UK towns to get this massive investment...under the guidance of regeneration guru Ms Portas...having a laugh surely??? Check out this weeks panorama on beeb i-player regards" putting disabled people back in mainstream employment"...but its all Browns fault isnt it???Put your money on a triple dip recession..."its a banker"

Posted By: Tangutica

Oh the shame, the shame Kwacka! Blame the previous government, or maybe the one before that, or even the one before that! :D

Posted By: ProVox

Post #41 Kwacka, I will never convince you that you are wrong and you will never convince me that I am wrong so I think we will have to agree to differ on how the Fed and the financial system works? :roll: As is usual only time will prove it one way or the other and by then I will be past caring! :wink:

Posted By: essence

Conservatives promise tax breaks for married couples...conned again!!!

Posted By: ProVox

George Osborne
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2273592/Will-Osbornes-reforms-break-Big-5-stranglehold-Disgraced-banks-lose-power-generation-upstart-challengers.html#axzz2JvvShndd
    Quote:
  • ‘Other planned changes include the ‘electric ring-fencing’ of banks, protecting their high street operations from their risky investment divisions which can then fail and not be rescued by the taxpayer. If a bank ‘flouts’ the new rules, designed to protect people’s savings and current accounts behind the ring fence, the Treasury will have the power to ‘break it up altogether’, Mr Osborne said.

Now that’s fighting talk from Osborne and the first step in cutting down the power of the Bankster’s but will anything change? He calls for the retail arm of each bank to be completely separate from the investment arm and it is this that the banks are resisting. This is a challenge to the banks that they do not like, as several comments by bankers have shown. As usual all the excuses of how bad such moves are for business loans, will increase interest rates to borrowers and a threat to lending generally .......... are we really that stupid to believe these excuses every time ‘ Bank Reform ’ is mentioned?
It was said by one commentator on the subject that '.. the Banks were already cutting through the fence or digging under it .' and it was this that made Osborne voice the threat of Treasury intervention if they tried to work their way around it. The message is clearly comply or else! :evil:
Just the first step in bringing the Bankster’s to heal! It will be interesting to see if it is anything more than hot air. :roll: :-k

Posted By: romatarot

The way I see it is this. I grow apples, I make cider. My neighbour keeps chickens. I swap my apples for eggs. Enter the banker. No apples, no eggs. Enter the politician. No apples, no eggs. Do my neighbour or I need either the politician or the banker?

Posted By: mouse

  • romatarot wrote:
    The way I see it is this.
    I grow apples, I make cider. My neighbour keeps chickens. I swap my apples for eggs.
    Enter the banker. No apples, no eggs.
    Enter the politician. No apples, no eggs.
    Do my neighbour or I need either the politician or the banker?

You need a lawyer, as you are being done. Chickens don't lay eggs, so what he has been giving you are not eggs. Sue him. :? :lol:

Posted By: romatarot

How about this mouse? I'm sat in my hut on the beach, neighbours in mansions on both sides of me, I go fishing and catch all I need to eat, swim with my dog, plenty of time to be with my family........................ and then along comes the Banker - ' hey, why don't I lend you some money, you mortgage your hut, you buy a load of boats, employ lots of locals, make a load of dosh, float your company on the stock exchange, make a load more money and retire to the Cayman Islands so you can relax ?'. Me 'I'm in the Caymans, have a beach hut, fish, play with my dog, eat my catch and chill to the rhythms of the ocean' I don't need you !!!!!! Sue me!!!!!!! I'm sure the neighbours have placed bets with hedge fund managers at CitiGroup/Goldman Sachs/Bank of America as to how long I'll resist the bankers..................... Along comes a politician, sorry, I'm tired and want to smoke my last fag and drink my last vodka and contemplate my navel.................. for politician read 'banker who sits in parliament'.......... somebody else's lackey................... Nice one, mouse, anybody told the emperor he's naked lately?

Posted By: mouse

  • romatarot wrote:
    How about this mouse?
    I'm sat in my hut on the beach, neighbours in mansions on both sides of me, I go fishing and catch all I need to eat, swim with my dog, plenty of time to be with my family........................ and then along comes the
    Banker - ' hey, why don't I lend you some money, you mortgage your hut, you buy a load of boats, employ lots of locals, make a load of dosh, float your company on the stock exchange, make a load more money and retire to the Cayman Islands so you can relax ?'.
    Me 'I'm in the Caymans, have a beach hut, fish, play with my dog, eat my catch and chill to the rhythms of the ocean' I don't need you !!!!!!
    Sue me!!!!!!! I'm sure the neighbours have placed bets with hedge fund managers at CitiGroup/Goldman Sachs/Bank of America as to how long I'll resist the bankers.....................
    Along comes a politician, sorry, I'm tired and want to smoke my last fag and drink my last vodka and contemplate my navel.................. for politician read 'banker who sits in parliament'.......... somebody else's lackey...................
    Nice one, mouse, anybody told the emperor he's naked lately?

Is that the correct spelling. :wink: :lol:

Posted By: essence

Triple A credit rating up in smoke...like the UK economy.Watch the pound slump now...

Posted By: romatarot

credit ratings, shcmedit .... Byker tell me if you know where all of those Range Rover Evoques went if you can? My guess is that the vast majority landed in the UAE, Qatar. thanks

Posted By: Byker

  • romatarot wrote:

    Byker tell me if you know where all of those Range Rover Evoques went if you can? My guess is that the vast majority landed in the UAE, Qatar.
    thanks

Not exactly...
    Quote:
  • Range Rover’s smash-hit Evoque has driven UK car production to its highest level since 2008, and an all-time record export level. In 2012, UK car manufacturing was up 9% compared with 2011, with 1.46m cars produced. Almost 83% were exported.
    The Evoque was 2012’s standout performer, having racked up an astonishing 108,598 sales last year. In August, Land Rover’s Halewood plant (which produces the Evoque and facelifted Freelander 2) switched to round-the-clock production, for the first time in its history. The move created an extra 1000 jobs, and helped drive total Land Rover production up by 28% year-on-year.
    Who else was a winner last year?
    According to figures CAR obtained from the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders, Jaguar production climbed by 12% – though that only equates to another 5984 cars. Nissan’s phenomenal Sunderland plant churned out in excess of half-a-million cars, up 6.3%, while Mini production grew 8.4%.
    On paper, Honda was the biggest climber with almost 70% growth. But these figures are tempered by 2011 being a shocking year for Honda due to the Japanese tsunami hitting the supply chain, and the Euro crisis and run-out years for the Civic and CR-V stifling production. 2013 has started badly for Honda too, with 800 jobs cut from the Swindon plant due to lax demand.
    And the losers were…?
    Only Toyota, which like Honda was hit by the tsunami and ageing models, witnessed a dip, as did Vauxhall at the Astra plant in Ellesmere Port. It illustrates the problem the mass-market faces, while sales of premium cars and SUVs are mushrooming.
    Britain isn’t quite importing more vehicles than it exports though, although the SMMT predicts the import/export see-saw will tip our way in 2013. But by car list price – a far more important economic index – Britain’s car industry is already in the black. Professor Garel Rhys of Cardiff Business School says it takes three imported cars to equal the value of two of our premium exports. Land Rover is a strong case study: of the 305,467 cars LR assembled, just 54,235 stayed with UK customers.
    Where are all these exported cars going?
    China and the US mainly: their insatiable thirst for luxury (British) goods has pulled LR and Bentley from the insecure to the buoyant. Chinese car sales are tipped to rise from 6.2m in 2009 to over 20m by the end of the decade, and it’s super-cool British offerings (SUVs and saloons more so than Spyder supercars) that are hoovering up the money of China’s nouveau riche.
    With mainstream car makers under pressure to close plants, Britain looks to be second only to Germany in Europe for mid-recession car construction. Banish those ancient Leyland nightmares: it seems we’re ‘the English Patient’ no longer – until David Cameron’s referendum on Britain’s membership of the European single market, perhaps…


Posted By: romatarot

thanks for the quick reply B, so this information apparently contradicts news articles about US fiscal 'cliffs', next thing we're told might be 'himalayan fiscal mountains......' along with luxury uk manufactured suvs etc, i also heard that china has the latest aircraft carrier my dad worked for bmc in the cape province (souf efrika) in the 60s we'd all get treats being given rides in mini mokes............. ah are there any left now i wonder? am off out now but if you like will link you in later the proposed china air craft carrier is enormous supposedly

Posted By: Tangutica

Wonder no more - just google it. I thought you were the queen of google?
Mini Moke Fan? Fill yer boots.
Moke = Donkey (that was the first result!)
    Quote:
  • Mokes were first built at the Morris factory in Oxford before production moved to BMC's Longbridge, Birmingham plant, and eventually overseas. 14,500 Mokes were produced in the UK between 1964 and 1968, 26,000 in Australia between 1966 and 1981, and 10,000 in Portugal between 1980 and 1993 when production of the Moke ended.

THE UNMUTUAL PRISONER VEHICLE GUIDE - THE MINI MOKE
http://www.theunmutual.co.uk/minimoke.htm
Kate Moss Takes The Wheel In A Mini Moke
http://perezhilton.com/cocoperez/2012-08-22-kate-moss-driving-mini-moke-saint-tropez#.USuINqVTAYc
http://new.minimania.com/moke
http://mjkearn.hubpages.com/hub/Kit-Cars-The-Mini-Moke-Replica
Spotlight on that preposterous Mini Moke!
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X-MDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=still+driving+a+mini+moke?&source=bl&ots=YfoOI7Ypeg&sig=HF2EvqVC4cv7pyVozk-DlUN8bYo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IYgrUcfKPMyHhQf79IDACg&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=still%20driving%20a%20mini%20moke%3F&f=false


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